[slothy]

Pedantry, Rolly, pedantry..

PS No idea what this word means, but i hope it makes me sound intelligent.

PPS My angle on this, and i coincidentally agree with Roland, however much it pains me: the 3NT in this auction is NOT serious with regards to my understanding of this convention; it is just offering p a choice of games with most likely a 4-3-3-3 shape (or even more balanced )

PPPS Ah well going for my 5th tequila slammer... this Internet Cafe sucks...

PPPPS Nothing to say, just that 4 Ps looks sooooooo sexy (and the Tequila taking effect)

[Winstonm]

As is the case of almost all conventions, serious 3N was developed to solve a problem - that being how do you separate a "serious" slam try - one based on overall strength - from a mild slam try with minimum hands that have shape and controls when you are out of room. This occurs when the major suit fit in not disclosed until you reach the 3 level. In other auctions, it is simply not needed.

WinstonM

[Stephen Tu]

The problem serious 3nt is designed to solve is how much you need to cue bid when both players are basically unlimited in strength. Otherwise you get the problem of both partners cue-bidding in case the other one has extras, and you get overboard. Or you miss a slam because you refused to cue without extras, but this time partner had them & needed you to cue.

In the auction in question, 1m-1M-2M-?, you don't need serious 3nt as opener is sharply limited. You need 3nt as natural if the raise can be done on 3 cards. If the raise absolutely guarantees 4, then 3nt could be used artificially, but "serious 3nt" won't be the best use of the bid. (Perhaps it can be used to distinguish voids/singletons).

I only play serious 3nt (or more usually frivolous 3nt) after "game forcing major suit agreement at 3 level when neither partner is limited". Otherwise the natural meaning is often far too valuable to give up.

[keylime]

I play serious 3NT only when trumps have been set somewhere in the auction. In essence with us, only in a strong club or a slammish trump auction.

Nothing wrong with playing 3NT as choice of games with balanced hands.

[pclayton]

I think that Serious 3N could still work after 1 grape - 1 banana - 2 bananas. You just can't bid it directly after the single raise. Temporize with something else 1st and then bid 3N.

I agree with Stephens comment that Serious 3N is especially useful when either partner is unlimited, yet Opener can still have a wide range for the single raise, especially in context of todays garbage openings that seem to be in vogue.

[P_Marlowe]

luke warm, on Jun 15 2005, 03:53 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jun 15 2005, 12:20 PM, said:

Your given rule: If a mayor fit is found,  3NT is never
to play, is the rule, we follow, always.

this isn't true... fred defines serious 3nt as (paraphrasing) "an 8 card or longer major suit fit in a game forcing auction"... how oh how did 2s on the example auction establish a game force? if it did not establish a game force, then opener (the 2s bidder) can not be expected to understand 3nt as anything other than an offer to play, regardless of responder's intent

Hi Luke,

as it is so often the case, it depends on partnership
agreement.

You stress the point, that 3NT is only serious, when
the auction is already game forcing.
Thats fine, but then it will be near impossible for
responder to bid 3 NT as serious:

1D - 1S
2S - 3C (1)
3S (2) - 3NT (3)


(1) game try, however you play it, it could be intended
as adv. cue bid, but nobody knows, but then, it does
not create a game force
(2) minimum, no interest in game, hence no game force
(3) with your definition: it is not serious, in other word
responder will need to use LTTC and Lackwood,
to make it clear, that he really has strong interest
in slam

Looking at those implications, I really prefer my simple rule,
I may give up on the choice of game, which would be nice to
have and I may loose out there, but I will avoid
misunderstandings groping up in LTTC and Lackwood sequences.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: As a side note: Due to lack of judgement, I dont play very often,
I will sometimes get it wrong, which game I should choose, following
my simple rule, I will stop agonizing about those close decisions
and save my stamina.

[luke warm]

Quote

You stress the point, that 3NT is only serious, when the auction is already game forcing. Thats fine, but then it will be near impossible for responder to bid 3 NT as serious:

exactly right... and btw, it's only a matter of agreement when the p'ship plays something other than the system in question... serious 3nt is defined in the notes, and that's the system we're playing

Quote

1D      - 1S
2S      - 3C  (1)
3S (2) - 3NT (3)

in this auction, i'm not quite clear on what's happening... i've seen people bid a 4 card spade suit before a 5 card club suit, with a gave forcing hand.. i don't do it, but i have seen it

the 3s bid to me says "i have 4 spades"... this is necessary since the 1S bid could only be 4 cards... 3nt shows a good hand imo but if i had slam interest i'd continue to cue else bid rkc... why would i want to deny interest in 3nt when often that's the best spot?

just my opinion...

[helene_t]

pclayton, on Jun 16 2005, 03:24 AM, said:

I think that Serious 3N could still work after 1 grape - 1 banana - 2 bananas. You just can't bid it directly after the single raise. Temporize with something else 1st and then bid 3N.

As long as opener promises 4 bananas. Otherwise you could relay with 2 or 3 oranges (or two notrump) and then use serious 3NT after opener showed 4 bananas.

But why would you do that? Opener's strength is reasonably well defined and responder is captain. So opener must cooperate if responder starts cuebidding. There's little need to bypass 3NT in order to ask opner not to cooperate with a minimum, since he allready showed a minimum.

[mike777]

P_Marlowe, on Jun 16 2005, 04:00 AM, said:

luke warm, on Jun 15 2005, 03:53 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jun 15 2005, 12:20 PM, said:

Your given rule: If a mayor fit is found,  3NT is never
to play, is the rule, we follow, always.

this isn't true... fred defines serious 3nt as (paraphrasing) "an 8 card or longer major suit fit in a game forcing auction"... how oh how did 2s on the example auction establish a game force? if it did not establish a game force, then opener (the 2s bidder) can not be expected to understand 3nt as anything other than an offer to play, regardless of responder's intent

Hi Luke,

as it is so often the case, it depends on partnership
agreement.

You stress the point, that 3NT is only serious, when
the auction is already game forcing.
Thats fine, but then it will be near impossible for
responder to bid 3 NT as serious:

1D - 1S
2S - 3C (1)
3S (2) - 3NT (3)


(1) game try, however you play it, it could be intended
as adv. cue bid, but nobody knows, but then, it does
not create a game force
(2) minimum, no interest in game, hence no game force
(3) with your definition: it is not serious, in other word
responder will need to use LTTC and Lackwood,
to make it clear, that he really has strong interest
in slam

Looking at those implications, I really prefer my simple rule,
I may give up on the choice of game, which would be nice to
have and I may loose out there, but I will avoid
misunderstandings groping up in LTTC and Lackwood sequences.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: As a side note: Due to lack of judgement, I dont play very often,
I will sometimes get it wrong, which game I should choose, following
my simple rule, I will stop agonizing about those close decisions
and save my stamina.

Alert convention Abuse

P has bid 2s and 3s Good Grief! They have nothing. They could not make some game try back to you over 3clubs. Note here they could have bid 3d or 3h not 3s but did not. Opener sounds like he has one of my 10HCP NV openers.
AKXX=XX=QJXX=XXX

Serious 3nt comes up very rarely, most of the time just make your cuebids or bid game. Convention abuse and overuse.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

with your definition: it is not serious, in other word
responder will need to use LTTC and Lackwood,
to make it clear, that he really has strong interest
in slam

No, you don't. When one partner has shown a minimum, then a minimum-minimum, if the other partner is still cue-bidding, he of course has strong slam interest. You don't need to distinguish strong interest from weak interest after someone has been limited! If you only had mild interest, if opener has shown no signs of life you just sign off in game, you shouldn't be interested anymore.

3NT as serious 3NT in these types of situations is a waste of a bid.