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stuffed up by psyche

#41 User is offline   aawk 

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Posted 2020-October-22, 11:35

To me the hand is not a double. First double than introducing a new suit showing a strong hand needs more than your 14 HCP. I would bid 4.

But now your partner is faced with a jump to 3, holding KQxx in must be enough to bid 4. Why you ask, trust your partner.
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#42 User is offline   dsLawsd 

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Posted 2020-October-22, 13:22

What could partner have to double first and then jump to 3 showing a strong hand? about 8-9 tricks and you have KQxx!
I might have just overcalled 4to start...
Part of our bridge education?
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#43 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2020-October-22, 13:43

Goodness. I can't say as any of the players bid this hand well at all!

1H is way too aggressive. Just pass.

I have more sympathy for the X than the other posters here. West has a nine-trick hand, for goodness sakes (assuming the opening 1H bidder has the Ah). She needs virtually nothing from her partner except the Ks. I would X as well, despite the lack of HCP, as I think this hand is way too good for a NV 4S bid.

North's 1S psyche is just awful against competent opponents.

East needs to X. Period. Do NOT play responsive Xs here. It's not just exposing psyches that's the problem. It's also the situation where North has four spades and South is void. You really want them to bid normally and talk you out of your 9-card fit?

2H is an awful call. You know partner has 2 or fewer. Why not bid 1NT or 2C?

East's failure to X puts West in a tough spot. 3S sounds like you're asking for a heart stopper for 3NT here. When the opponents have bid two suits, you show stops rather than ask. So maybe you have a running minor and a spade stop. 2S sounds like a cue-bid, but I think that's what I would do. Then I would bid 3S over whatever East did, and hopefully he'll get the message.

I don't see how East can pass 3S. Either East thinks this is showing a spade stop for NT (in which case, without a H stop, he has to bid 4C) or else he thinks West actually has spades, in which case he has an easy raise to 4. I would bid 4C and then pass West's 4S.

Cheers,
Mike
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#44 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2020-October-22, 14:10

View PostAL78, on 2020-October-22, 05:02, said:

Rule of 19: Add your HCP and the length of your two longest suits. If it comes to 19 or more you can open. I have heard a variant on this called the rule of 21, where you include number of quick tricks, if it comes to 20.5 or more (green vuln), 21 or more (equal vuln), or 21.5 or more (red vuln) you can open. A point knocked off for Qx, Jx stiff K, a point added for AJT.

You evidently have come across a poor bridge teacher. Don't tar everyone with the same brush. I've been complemented by students when I have given bridge workshops at my club, I put lessons together almost entirely from my own knowledge and experience, only very occasionally looking up what is standard to teach to beginners where there is some ambiguity.


No, FTF I have yet to come across a good bridge teacher. I have come across many excellent Bridge players who can explain when pressed single elements of bidding or play. That is not the same thing as being an educator.
An educator provides a person with the tools to learn. They explain things to them with clarity. They reveal the underlying mechanisms. They do not trot out rules and say "do this" and you'll be right. That works for a youtube video or a chalk talk.

It does explain why the "Bridge teachers" that I've met get upset when I start asking them why it works that way. I just assumed it was because they wanted me to pay them for their time. Now I'm beginning to think that in most cases it's because they were not capable of providing a coherent explanation.

This is not surprising because the training to become a Teacher of Bridge is that you put your hand in the air and say "I'm a Bridge teacher" plus, you can play Bridge and you are over the age of 15. At least to become a real Teacher, apart from actual training in teaching, you also need to have a criminal record check and a working with children check.
You also need to have your vaccinations up-to-date in Australia.
So, no I wasn't impressed with the Trump-supporting plagiarist at that Club - even if he does have a yellow star which by the way is an antisemitic symbol. I did offer to help him with his approach to education btw! you can imagine how that went down. He thinks he's perfect.

The "secret" to learning, as every clever person knows, is to be aware that there are always smarter people than you around. That you can always learn something new and that it is smart to appear stupid.
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#45 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2020-October-22, 15:24

View PostAL78, on 2020-October-22, 06:07, said:

Whatever you think of the auction, I only asked whether East doubling on the first round to show spades is a standard way of exposing the psyche. No need to lay into me, I wasn't even playing that evening, and as I've said, if it were me I would have overcalled on the West hand and the psyche would never have happened.



THIS IS A DRAFT

PLEASE WAIT UNTIL I POST A RESPONSE TO YOUR ACCUSATION

IT WILL BE COMPLETE WHEN I DELETE THIS HEADER

THANKS

BUT FOR THE RECORD AND ANYONE READING THIS

1. You quoted a post that I actually deleted for good reason - not because it contained anything I don't stand but for any number of reasons

2. It takes a long time to write, format and edit long posts on the crappy tools we have available these days. So please be patient

3. But a few years ago when I first joined a few characters caused me a lot of trouble and caused conflict and misunderstanding with many of the good people on these forums. I have a vahue recollection of names but cant be sure. But the kind of trouble you are stirring up here makes me wonder ok.

4. In fact I pretty much stand by anything I have ever said or written with the proviso that everyone makes errors, typos, occasionally things get heated etc. It doesnt need people causing problems. Especially with quoted pieces of deleted text. I actually only saw your responses after I had deleted three posts immediately after posting them because I didnt like the content

5. It may all appear innocent and I am not making an accusation. I need to be very careful. Never know who I am talking to and the way they act to cause problems for someone on public forums

6. I very much doubt I have ever said much I didn't feel was justified at any time, and often was provoked. And often the people behind the stresses, the problems, the provcation sit quietly and unnoticed. Just saying. No accuastions ok

7. Do you know how stress and hurt unfounded accsations can cause - personally and professionally. After being pushed into a situation of being accsed of being a troll a few years ago, I essentially was so upset I stopped posting for ages. Eventually everythign calmed down. Then I made the mistake of buying into this thread about a ridiculous auction

8. And it does seem strange that my comments are those singled out for attention with an accusation. Everyone else made various levels of criticism of that auction

9 THis kind of rubbish, stress, conlfict, defence against unjust accusations can cause so much wasted time, problems in every part of someone's life. Its taking me away from very important tasks and important people, just to respond to these kind of tactics

Thats why this response may take some time but I have to deal with an accusation of this kind. Its unbeleivable. Life is too short for this. I cant believe it. One ridiculous auction and it gets blown up like this

I'm just an ordinary (mainly social), half competent Bridge player who has been learning and playing for over 40 years. Its nice to be able to comment on posts without being dragged into all the ridicuous legalistic type stuff. I will leave that up to those who do need to think about it in their lives and careers. I don't appreciate being dragged into this at all.

You are offically now on my "Do not interact under any circumstances" list because of the trouble that always seems to ensue - if my memory serves me. I have aflaky memory but names tend to stick even in forums after many years

Does it ever cross anyone's mind that there are people who are genuinely very sensitive, and get hurt at personal attack like that, especially when it can cause problems in every area of life, and every area of trust. Its often those who get the most hurt who can appear to be the trouble maker.Life and the word is like that. Something I have personal and professional experience in, even some clinical training. So please be careful who you try to wind up and make look bad, if that is every anyone's intent

I'm still looking for the words that constituted laying in. All the words I am drafting up are a response (with emotion) to a personal attack and accusation against my person and who I am

Maybe if you have much experience of the world you may find that often the best people, the gentlest people, the most responsible people, those with most stresses and pressures in their lives actually come across as assholes sometimes or angry. When in fact its the cool cucumbers who maybe are the problem sometimes

I wasted so much time writing those messages because of how much that auction essentially insulted me and my feelings about Bridge. It actually offended me enough to start writing those posts. The content I stand by. I am critiquing the auction, nothing else

But do you know how much time and emotional energy has been wasted by that one ridiculous auction being posted. Many hours of my time. And as I said its taking me away from important tasks, important people, and actually causing conflicts and troubles elsewhere I could do without. You know some of us have responsibilites and cant waste all our time dealing with chat about a missed game that most people would have reached easily
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#46 User is online   AL78 

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Posted 2020-October-22, 16:15

View Postthepossum, on 2020-October-22, 15:24, said:

THIS IS A DRAFT

PLEASE WAIT UNTIL I POST A RESPONSE TO YOUR ACCUSATION

THANKS

BUT FOR THE RECORD AND ANYONE READING THIS

1. You quoted a post that I actually deleted for good reason - not because it contained anything I don't stand but for any number of reasons

2. It takes a long time to write, format and edit long posts on the crappy tools we have available these days. So please be patient

3. But a few years ago when I first joined a few characters caused me a lot of trouble and caused conflict and misunderstanding with many of the good people on these forums. I have a vahue recollection of names but cant be sure. But the kind of trouble you are stirring up here makes me wonder ok.


It wasn't deleted at the time I quoted it, so I may well choose to respond to it. How am I supposed to know that you are going to delete a post I may decide to respond too and quote, and why should I care? If you are in doubt about whether you should post something, don't, but don't complain if you choose to post something on a public forum and someone then decides to quote and respond to it. That is what happens on forums like this.

I'm not stirring up any trouble, it is you that is throwing out an antagonistic attitude like you have a chip on your shoulder. Don't try and project your attitude onto me. If you've had problems with other people, maybe it is you that is the problem, in my experience people who whinge about how bad other people are, are their own worst enemy.
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#47 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2020-October-22, 16:35

View PostAL78, on 2020-October-22, 16:15, said:

It wasn't deleted at the time I quoted it, so I may well choose to respond to it. How am I supposed to know that you are going to delete a post I may decide to respond too and quote, and why should I care? If you are in doubt about whether you should post something, don't, but don't complain if you choose to post something on a public forum and someone then decides to quote and respond to it. That is what happens on forums like this.

I'm not stirring up any trouble, it is you that is throwing out an antagonistic attitude like you have a chip on your shoulder. Don't try and project your attitude onto me. If you've had problems with other people, maybe it is you that is the problem, in my experience people who whinge about how bad other people are, are their own worst enemy.


Please. I asked you to wait until I had finished writing. No need to push this any further. This will be a final statement in defence.

Just back off please. I'm asking nicely. I am the one having to deal with a problem here not you.

All because of some irrlevant stupid auction. Do you not get that

Are you going to keep this game going forever, copy and pasting and quoting chunks. What is your problem

Please just drop it and let the thing die a natural death once I have completed my response. I am not making an accusation aginst you. I am making a defence.

Do you not even understand what I am saying.

I wrote a few posts and deleted them almost immediately to wake up this morning and find responses that had been sitting there all night to my deletd posts. Do you not understand that is a problem of the technology we deal with. Not an opportunity to cause trouble.

So I am asking nicely to wait until I respond. There will be no argument. Just a staement of defence and no further conversation with you at all ever because of the problems. Maybe you don't understand the issues.

Sorry I need to go. I have many more important people I need to talk to. But please just wait and stop jumping and quoting every single I write before I hardly geta chance to read it myself

But as I said, I stand by anything and everyhting I ever write. They occasionlyy have typos or word errors needing correcting. But we all have a right to correct an error especially on this kind of technology and the devices we have to use and the editing tools.

Thats more emotional upset and wasted time. Lets take a break please.

But finally for the moment. Do you not realise how totally tricial and insiginificant a post on these forums is when there is a big world out there will real problems and people trying to fix them

But seriously come on. In any issue like this there is usually one party (often the wronged one) who is actually trying to defuse a ridiulous over-reaction toa triviality and another party intent on perpetuating it forever. As I said after this there will nevr be any interaction again. My defence and statement will stand alone. I cant stop you quoting me ad nauseum but thats how it is.

And I am not going to use the "t" word an accusation thrown at me due to riduclous conflicts a few years ago caused by those to whom the label really applies - usually unknown. The perps usually keep hidden and enjoy the mayhem

Some of us are actually totally professional ethical people, people who have things to protect both for our own individual sakes but also everyone else who depends on our reputation, trust and professionalism. I am not having some nobody undermine that on an irrelevant forum Got it yet

Do you realise now, when things like this happen, that I now have to waste so much time constantly checking everywhere for misquotes, quotes out of context. How much time taken from important tasks and important people by careless use of quoting and not letting the thing die

THE END

PS If I thought you were of a cooperative mindset rather than a conflictual one, we could just delete the whole sorry affair. Not holding my breath though. Thats in your court
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#48 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2020-October-22, 17:16

thepossum showing his true colors again. Someone needs a forum timeout.
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#49 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2020-October-22, 17:42

View PostTylerE, on 2020-October-22, 17:16, said:

thepossum showing his true colors again. Someone needs a forum timeout.


Hello again Tyler. I think it is you shwoing your true colours.

A few years ago when you attacked me as part of the bullying squad I requested that you never commented on any of my threads again. This is not one of my threads but you did not heed my reasonable request to avoid further conflict. However you did post on other threads in a mroe reasonable way, as have some of the others who were also involved in unnecessary conflcit. They seem to have learned polite behaviour. I thought you had too. Seems I was wrong.

Is the rest of the bullying squad going to show up. Do I have to keep checking every five minutes

Maybe for once some of you could use your alleged smarts and look back and see how the problem started in this thread. OK

It actually started with the original post, but the attack against me and use of a deleted post. I stand by everything I said in it. It was deleted for good reason. Some people are so quick at quoting and responding you dont even get a chance to see it yourself.

Maybe you could back off too. What is your problem Tyler. Maybe you could stay out.

yet another thread needing defence opens up

Do you all just like wasting good people's valuable time defending themselves or what
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#50 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2020-October-22, 17:50

Do I have to spend the rest of my life searching this whole site, the whole internet for any other threads of attack being opened up.

Its another polite rwuest to just cease and desist, anyone else wanting to join in

What the proverbial hell is going on.

The world is going to hell because of this kind of rubbish

Its a trivial isue being beaten up into a fight and hurting and attacking someone for no good reason at all as far as I can see

What is your problem (that aplies to those it applies to and only them)

Why was I singled out again. Am I the only person on this site not entitled to a view on Bridge

the proverbial pile on. Then each defence gets attacked again and they multiply faster than you can deal with them

Its is totally ridicuous and meanwhile we are being taken away from what is important (at least those of us with important *****)

Do you actually know how long it is going to take me to write my letter of defence, report. I think I will extend it to cover the whole of the last three years and post it on any thread where I have been maligned. Thats if people keep starting up avenues that need defending

What I really don't understand why a very ordinary Bridge player with no standing in the game (other than enjoying the game and playing it for years) is such a threat to so many senior (apparently) members of the world bridge community
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#51 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2020-October-22, 18:13

It's time to close this thread Barry.
(-: Zel :-)

half-wit -- Chas_P the racist
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#52 User is online   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-October-22, 21:37

View PostTylerE, on 2020-October-22, 17:16, said:

thepossum showing his true colors again. Someone needs a forum timeout.


I wouldn’t worry. These posts are, for virtually everyone TL:DR. And don’t care.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#53 User is online   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-October-22, 21:43

View Postpilowsky, on 2020-October-22, 14:10, said:


This is not surprising because the training to become a Teacher of Bridge is that you put your hand in the air and say "I'm a Bridge teacher" plus, you can play Bridge and you are over the age of 15. At least to become a real Teacher, apart from actual training in teaching, you also need to have a criminal record check and a working with children check.


To be a certified EBU bridge teacher you need to take a training course. If I am not mistaken, you also need a criminal record check.

You seem happy with your online teacher. How did you find him or her?
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#54 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2020-October-22, 22:20

View PostVampyr, on 2020-October-22, 21:43, said:

To be a certified EBU bridge teacher you need to take a training course. If I am not mistaken, you also need a criminal record check.

You seem happy with your online teacher. How did you find him or her?


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#55 User is offline   haka9 

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Posted 2020-October-23, 04:37

View PostAL78, on 2020-October-22, 03:37, said:

I'd be surprised at that. Most beginners I know were taught the rule of 19.

I know an experienced player at the club that doesn't like people upgrading any balanced 11 count to a weak NT (e.g. one with working honors and several tens and nines). He thinks if they do that their card should say 11-14 1NT.


Off-topic: I started playing bridge with a strong club system (now I know that it isn't the best system to start with). Then we could open with 11 hcp and a decent 5 card suit. After that I changed my residence and joined another bridge club. At that time 4 card openings were standard. I never heard of the rule of 19. Instead most players in the new club followed the rule of 15 when opening with slight points: If hcp + number of is at least 15, open.

More off-topic: I know an experienced player who said in an interview that he can upgrade a "good" 14 hcp to 15-17 1 NT. I think his system description should say: 1 NT (14)15-17 hcp, but no.

In-topic: I can think three bids to 1 opening: I can bid 1 to tell 5 cards. I can double with a mighty hand, now with . I can bid brutally 4 . In most cases I would double. However, after double my partner should not pass to 1 .
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#56 User is offline   nudnikbp 

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Posted 2020-October-23, 05:26

North shouldn't bid one spade with a regular partner.
In addition, it is ethically questionable to make psychic bids against weaker players.
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#57 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-October-23, 06:36

View Postnudnikbp, on 2020-October-23, 05:26, said:

In addition, it is ethically questionable to make psychic bids against weaker players.


Fortunately, the game governed by the laws rather than rando's personal aesthetics.
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#58 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2020-October-23, 06:57

View Posthaka9, on 2020-October-23, 04:37, said:

More off-topic: I know an experienced player who said in an interview that he can upgrade a "good" 14 hcp to 15-17 1 NT. I think his system description should say: 1 NT (14)15-17 hcp, but no.

This is common to the point of being universal at higher level these days. In fact, there are some heated ongoing debates if this should be marked on a CC, or needs a pre-alert, or where to draw the lines. Some people have taken to writing "14+-17-".
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#59 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2020-October-23, 10:27

View Postnudnikbp, on 2020-October-23, 05:26, said:

In addition, it is ethically questionable to make psychic bids against weaker players.
So, when's a good time? When they're not a weaker player? What if I'm also a weaker player? What if they have twice as many attendance points as I do because they push cards 5 times a week? Are they still weaker?

The first time you are psyched against is a rite of passage, and I try to explain it that way when I'm directing and it happens. If this attitude (*), which frankly has been common for as long as I've been playing bridge, applies all the time, all it does is jump up the time, and jump up the outrage, when finally someone decides they're no longer a "weaker player" and psyches against them. That actually makes it *harder* for us directors to deal with.

And what are you going to say if North responded "Oops, I meant to bid 1NT, didn't notice?" What if it's true? Is it ethically questionable to misbid or misclick against weaker players? What about playing a weak NT (okay, strong NT in AL's land)? Or a 1 opener that is 0-7 clubs, but a king over a normal opener? What about a - totally non-psychic, systemic - 1 opener on AKJxxx, a stiff and another J?

It's *bad bridge* to psych against weaker players - psychs are -EV to begin with (but being known as someone who psychs may not be), and you should expect to be >50% against "weaker players" playing straight up. But it's legal, and legal is ethical in Bridge (seriously. That's why the Proprieties are Laws).

We should be teaching players in introductory lessons that "there's more than one way to do it", and that applies to "some people don't play 15-17 NT, and it's a valid way to play", "some people's strong bid is 1, not 2, and that's fine", and it also applies to "it is legal to misbid, it is in fact legal, but very uncommon, to deliberately lie. Here's why you don't want to do it now, or often, ever - [elided] - but it does happen, just so you're not surprised when in a couple of years, it happens to you." But we don't, and this is what happens.

(*) I'm reminded of another thread recently, which I won't link to, where some (few) were questioning the ethics of a player whose *partner* psyched, in a high-level match, against "weaker" players. For being willing to play with him? I don't know.
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#60 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2020-October-23, 11:12

View PostVampyr, on 2020-October-22, 08:32, said:

I see. It seems that my information was out of date. This is good.


It's been alertable since 1998. Possibly earlier, but my bookshelf doesn't go back any further.
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