BBO Discussion Forums: stuffed up by psyche - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 4 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

stuffed up by psyche

#21 User is offline   akwoo 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 897
  • Joined: 2010-November-21

Posted 2020-October-21, 23:12

View PostVampyr, on 2020-October-21, 19:51, said:

Not this time. Making this unalertable was a terrible mistake. Another thing that no longer requires an alert is a non-forcing change of suit after a weak two. Disclosure of methods seems to be an issue the EBU struggles with.


The problem is that beginners (and life novices, particularly those usually playing in isolated circles) often wouldn't know to alert either of these. It's annoying to have rules that beginners break inadvertently, and having such rules (particularly if they come up frequently) can drive some of them out of the game.

I don't know a good solution to this problem.
1

#22 User is offline   pilowsky 

  • pilowsky
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,288
  • Joined: 2019-October-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Writing, Learning, History, Politics

Posted 2020-October-21, 23:54

View Postakwoo, on 2020-October-21, 23:12, said:

The problem is that beginners (and life novices, particularly those usually playing in isolated circles) often wouldn't know to alert either of these. It's annoying to have rules that beginners break inadvertently, and having such rules (particularly if they come up frequently) can drive some of them out of the game.

I don't know a good solution to this problem.


That's really hitting the nail on the head. From some points of view, opening with 10HCP is a psych.
Alternatively, failing to bid spades with a strong hand and whopping spade suit is a psych whereas doubling to show points is just a reasonable overcall - to a beginner (ie me).

There are still people out there that would not dream of opening on less than 13HCP.
I bet the vast majority of Bridge-players do not know what the KR is.
Or what the commonest card shape is.

In medical negligence cases, the quality of a practitioners work is held to the standard expected of someone with their level of skill. Not that of an expert, or the any particular desired outcome.

Yet another good reason to have a quality rating system in Bridge.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek; N'écris jamais une lettre et n'en détruis jamais une.
0

#23 User is online   AL78 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 499
  • Joined: 2019-October-13

Posted 2020-October-22, 03:37

View Postpilowsky, on 2020-October-21, 23:54, said:

That's really hitting the nail on the head. From some points of view, opening with 10HCP is a psych.


I'd be surprised at that. Most beginners I know were taught the rule of 19.

I know an experienced player at the club that doesn't like people upgrading any balanced 11 count to a weak NT (e.g. one with working honors and several tens and nines). He thinks if they do that their card should say 11-14 1NT.
0

#24 User is offline   pilowsky 

  • pilowsky
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,288
  • Joined: 2019-October-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Writing, Learning, History, Politics

Posted 2020-October-22, 04:15

View PostAL78, on 2020-October-22, 03:37, said:

I'd be surprised at that. Most beginners I know were taught the rule of 19.

I know an experienced player at the club that doesn't like people upgrading any balanced 11 count to a weak NT (e.g. one with working honors and several tens and nines). He thinks if they do that their card should say 11-14 1NT.


What's the rule of 19? I'm not joking - I don't use it. I learned Bridge from youtube the internet and Books. The guy at one of the Clubs I went to stole lessons from Richard Pavlicek's website and removed RP's name from them.
Then he shamelessly made multiple copies of them and called them 'free lessons with Mike' then he read them out verbatim (as if from a teleprompter) interrupting himself now and then to say "I don't agree with that".
I left that Club and will not be going back.

I call that plagiarism.

I learn constantly from my partners, Nige1 Jeff Tang, Rob Barrington, cyberyeti and many others here and elsewhere. GIB is a critical learning tool.

Don't tell me about Bridge Teachers. Bridge Teachers tell me to "shut up and listen" (the guy at the club), or they say "what do you want to know". or - my all-time favourite - "you should look up the Dunning-Kruger effect."
By and large, Bridge teachers are superb players with almost no chops as educators. It's not their fault - someone makes a lot of money selling Bridge teacher certificates. I'm sure that in some jurisdictions, you need actual qualifications to set up as a Bridge teacher.
Not in others.


Being an Australian academic, I artlessly assumed that people would actually want to help each other. Imagine how unprepared I was for Bridgeworld where you're expected to pay for the air that you breathe: and then get criticised if you inhale it incorrectly.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek; N'écris jamais une lettre et n'en détruis jamais une.
1

#25 User is online   AL78 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 499
  • Joined: 2019-October-13

Posted 2020-October-22, 05:02

View Postpilowsky, on 2020-October-22, 04:15, said:

What's the rule of 19? I'm not joking - I don't use it. I learned Bridge from youtube the internet and Books. The guy at one of the Clubs I went to stole lessons from Richard Pavlicek's website and removed RP's name from them.
Then he shamelessly made multiple copies of them and called them 'free lessons with Mike' then he read them out verbatim (as if from a teleprompter) interrupting himself now and then to say "I don't agree with that".
I left that Club and will not be going back.

I call that plagiarism.

I learn constantly from my partners, Nige1 Jeff Tang, Rob Barrington, cyberyeti and many others here and elsewhere. GIB is a critical learning tool.

Don't tell me about Bridge Teachers. Bridge Teachers tell me to "shut up and listen" (the guy at the club), or they say "what do you want to know". or - my all-time favourite - "you should look up the Dunning-Kruger effect."
By and large, Bridge teachers are superb players with almost no chops as educators. It's not their fault - someone makes a lot of money selling Bridge teacher certificates. I'm sure that in some jurisdictions, you need actual qualifications to set up as a Bridge teacher.
Not in others.


Being an Australian academic, I artlessly assumed that people would actually want to help each other. Imagine how unprepared I was for Bridgeworld where you're expected to pay for the air that you breathe: and then get criticised if you inhale it incorrectly.


Rule of 19: Add your HCP and the length of your two longest suits. If it comes to 19 or more you can open. I have heard a variant on this called the rule of 21, where you include number of quick tricks, if it comes to 20.5 or more (green vuln), 21 or more (equal vuln), or 21.5 or more (red vuln) you can open. A point knocked off for Qx, Jx stiff K, a point added for AJT.

You evidently have come across a poor bridge teacher. Don't tar everyone with the same brush. I've been complemented by students when I have given bridge workshops at my club, I put lessons together almost entirely from my own knowledge and experience, only very occasionally looking up what is standard to teach to beginners where there is some ambiguity.
0

#26 User is offline   Huibertus 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 88
  • Joined: 2020-June-26

Posted 2020-October-22, 05:10

Yes, double by East means , you have to have this agreement in order to prevent exactly this baby psych to work against you. Just to add, it should mean "I WANTED to bid that" not "I HAD to bid that", a subtle difference.

Apart from that, what's wrong with W? Did he know North was going to psych and did he assume he was going to defend 1 doubled? There is no other excuse for him not to bid 1 himself.

And then the final pass of E? How in the world can one not raise with that hand when you think partner has a strong hand (should realy be even stronger then the actual hand) and lots of spades (otherwise E would not have passed 3)?
0

#27 User is online   AL78 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 499
  • Joined: 2019-October-13

Posted 2020-October-22, 06:01

View PostHuibertus, on 2020-October-22, 05:10, said:

Apart from that, what's wrong with W? Did he know North was going to psych and did he assume he was going to defend 1 doubled? There is no other excuse for him not to bid 1 himself.


Her partner prefers to play that a with an opening hand and a suit, to double first, hence she doubled instead of overcalling.
0

#28 User is online   AL78 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 499
  • Joined: 2019-October-13

Posted 2020-October-22, 06:07

View Postthepossum, on 2020-October-22, 06:00, said:

Until a few years ago I never even heard of the rule of 19

When I first learned to bid many moons ago I think (as a beginner) I was expected to have 12/13 HCPs before opening the bidding
Then reading stuff I learned about distribution points and myself started opening with a few fewer points depending on distribution
Then I learned about being more pre-emptive and trends for openers started getting lighter
Then I found out that everyone was using weak 2s instead of strong 2s so had to incorporate that into my bidding
Then many years later I started looking at things like losers in my hand as an additional variant on top of HCPs and distribution and how I felt on that day
I read about rule of 19 once somewhere thats all

The problem on that hand for me is the nonsensical double - you have one suit and one suit only etc hat is West messing around with and then to compound that why is East doing nothing

I appreciate everyone has weird and wonderful systems with all kinds of strange systems but complaining about the opening bid. Its ridiculous

I am sorry if I sound disrepsetcful but I would not want to learn bridge from anyone who didnt explain the ridiculousness of that auction

Why are we even wasting time reading and analysing and commenting on such a stupid auction


Whatever you think of the auction, I only asked whether East doubling on the first round to show spades is a standard way of exposing the psyche. No need to lay into me, I wasn't even playing that evening, and as I've said, if it were me I would have overcalled on the West hand and the psyche would never have happened.
0

#29 User is online   AL78 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 499
  • Joined: 2019-October-13

Posted 2020-October-22, 06:14

View Postthepossum, on 2020-October-22, 06:05, said:

Remind me never ever to even go close to a bridge club again

I havent been to one for decades because of this kind of rubbish

You will have to clarify. Its still not clear who is whinging but it seems to me its EW complaining about being incompetent and incapable of bidding to a spade game and blaming it on a perfectly reasonable (albeit light) opening by South

What is the deal. Seriously


West sent me the hand and was initially (lightly) complaining about it, she never said anything about the opening bid. It is one or two posters here that have latched on to this. EW haven't come across psyches or how to deal with them, West seems to be of the opinion that psyches are wrong, I keep telling her it is part of the game, they are perfectly legal, they don't come up very often. From what she told me, East never cottened on to the psyche, believing she held exactly five spades and there was a 4-0 break, that may have been why he passed. Normally he is quite an aggressive bidder, so somewhat unusual he didn't bid anything during the auction.
0

#30 User is offline   thepossum 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 933
  • Joined: 2018-July-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 2020-October-22, 06:16

View PostAL78, on 2020-October-22, 06:14, said:

West sent me the hand and was initially (lightly) complaining about it, she never said anything about the opening bid. It is one or two posters here that have latched on to this. EW haven't come across psyches or how to deal with them, West seems to be of the opinion that psyches are wrong, I keep telling her it is part of the game, they are perfectly legal, they don't come up very often. From what she told me, East never cottened on to the psyche, believing she held exactly five spades and there was a 4-0 break, that may have been why he passed. Normally he is quite an aggressive bidder, so somewhat unusual he didn't bid anything during the auction.


Sorry for deleting my post. I didnt realise you had responded

It just makes me angry or furstrated with bidding like that that people complain about stuff

I mean seriously. People bidding like that West bid. Whoever is responsible for what and whoever is complaining about stuff. etc

I'm sorry and I know I'm not a senior or advanced player but I played my whole life and take the game very seiriously

But that auction is a joke

I actually thought the problem was the crazy double. Then I come back to the thread and everyone is talking about the 1 heart opening being a psych and needing alerting.

What planet are you all on

I have tested that opening bid with various pices of software, and bidding systems and none of them had a problem bidding to game after that bid.

Seriously

And I get scared commenting. I get scared about beng regarded as disrepsetcful. But what is disrespectful is anyone even questionning that 1 heart opening bid and making an issue of it

EDIT But I wish I had not even commented on this ridiculous auction. The only reason for rhis post is that sadly you had commented on one of my deleted (angry) posts so I needed to respond to be fair to your response :) I will not comment again
0

#31 User is online   bluenikki 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 209
  • Joined: 2019-October-14

Posted 2020-October-22, 07:55

View PostAL78, on 2020-October-21, 07:57, said:

This hand came up with my friend and her partner.



This was worth 21%, all but one were in 4 or 5 making 10 or 11 tricks. The 21% was obtained because three pairs went off in 5.

I've heard that this is a basic situation to psyche, and I recall there is a way for the opponents to expose it. Is it doubling in 4th seat to show a spade suit?


In all *published* methods of advancing a takeout double, (1y) - Dbl - (1z) - Dbl shows 4 or more z.

This is not just to account for outright psychs, but for goose-psychs on 5432, where it still might be your best strain.
0

#32 User is online   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,495
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2020-October-22, 08:10

View PostAL78, on 2020-October-22, 03:37, said:

I'd be surprised at that. Most beginners I know were taught the rule of 19.

I know an experienced player at the club that doesn't like people upgrading any balanced 11 count to a weak NT (e.g. one with working honors and several tens and nines). He thinks if they do that their card should say 11-14 1NT.


Something like (11)12-14 would be more accurate than 11-14 or 12-14, as long as they do not upgrade very often.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#33 User is offline   Douglas43 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 70
  • Joined: 2020-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Isle of Man
  • Interests:Walking, boring my wife with bridge stories

Posted 2020-October-22, 08:18

I don't think that Vampyr is right to suggest that a non-forcing change of suit after a weak two is not alertable under EBU regulations?

The EBU Blue Book requires an alert of:

[b]A non-forcing new suit response, to a non-forcing suit opening at any level, below game, unless responder has previously passed, bids over a natural NT overcall, or makes a double jump [para 4 H 2 (d) on page 17 of the 2019 Blue Book https://www.ebu.co.u...k/blue-book.pdf ]

The Blue Book now also contains a provision to the effect of "if in doubt, alert":

2 A 2 These regulations are secondary to the duty of full disclosure (Law 40A). If a player is uncertain whether the regulations require an alert, but believes it would help the opponents, he should alert. At the end of the auction the declaring side may offer additional information, even if not requested. In particular, they are encouraged to draw attention to any calls whose meaning the defending side have not asked about but may not expect.

My only disappointment is that EBU went for alerts rather than announcements on non-forcing natural bids (I'd prefer announcements because less risk of UI for defending side who have to decide whether to ask about an alert). I raised the topic with the EBU magazine in the context of playing weak jump shifts (similar problem of disclosure, and strong jump shifts are still more "standard" in Britain). A senior TD confirmed that they are alertable.

Here is a link to the EBU magazine of October 2018 (see page 34 "ask Robin") https://view.pagetig.../k9sd6agebq4w5s
0

#34 User is online   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,495
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2020-October-22, 08:30

View Postthepossum, on 2020-October-22, 06:16, said:


I actually thought the problem was the crazy double. Then I come back to the thread and everyone is talking about the 1 heart opening being a psych and needing alerting.

What planet are you all on


I don’t think we’re on a different planet; I just think we are reading a different thread.

In this thread someone said that from some points of view the 1 opening could be considered a psyche, and then someone explained the rule of 19. Every other post have been about either the ridiculous double or the failure of East/West to expose a psyche, plus East’s weird interpretation of the auction.

By the way, doubling instead of overcalling with an opening bid is something I once saw in a Terence Reese book. So doubling with offshape minimums has considerable historical precedent. The fact that beginners would not know to whether to alert this is no reason for it not to be alertable. New players need to learn the alerting regulations in their jurisdiction.

By the way, the rule of 19 and rule of 20, which some people use instead, Is that intended to be used willy-nilly. It should be used only on marginal hands when it is close whether to open it or not.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#35 User is online   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,495
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2020-October-22, 08:32

View PostDouglas43, on 2020-October-22, 08:18, said:

I don't think that Vampyr is right to suggest that a non-forcing change of suit after a weak two is not alertable under EBU regulations?

The EBU Blue Book requires an alert of:

[b]A non-forcing new suit response, to a non-forcing suit opening at any level, below game, unless responder has previously passed, bids over a natural NT overcall, or makes a double jump [para 4 H 2 (d) on page 17 of the 2019 Blue Book https://www.ebu.co.u...k/blue-book.pdf ]


I see. It seems that my information was out of date. This is good.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#36 User is offline   Douglas43 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 70
  • Joined: 2020-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Isle of Man
  • Interests:Walking, boring my wife with bridge stories

Posted 2020-October-22, 09:33

View PostVampyr, on 2020-October-22, 08:10, said:

Something like (11)12-14 would be more accurate than 11-14 or 12-14, as long as they do not upgrade very often.


Vampyr's point is helpful. I upgrade genuinely good 11 counts and downgrade really bad 15 counts, my card describes 1NT as "11+ to 14 / bad 15"
0

#37 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,355
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, Canada

Posted 2020-October-22, 10:10

View PostAL78, on 2020-October-22, 06:07, said:

Whatever you think of the auction, I only asked whether East doubling on the first round to show spades is a standard way of exposing the psyche.
To this, the answer is yes, but getting less common over time. It might even be less than 50% in Flight A in several parts of the ACBL (don't know English styles very well, sorry).

The key is, when you decide that the double here means minors (which is what is replacing "this is my suit", or "I was going to bid this"), you gain flexibility in the huge number of auctions where there wasn't a psych (or you don't have the 8-card fit with the 4-1 break). That's actually a pretty big thing, really. Whether the added fragility to the baby psych or the natural bid your fit is worth it depends strongly on the frequency of (baby psych or steal your fit). Which leads to the argument I made in my previous response - players' reaction to "my system doesn't protect against psychs any more" isn't "change the system", it's "try to drive psychs out of the game, even though they're 'legal' "; I guess it's a strategy, of sorts. I like "800 if you're wrong, 620 if you're right", myself.
0

#38 User is online   hrothgar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,822
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Natick, MA
  • Interests:Travel
    Cooking
    Brewing
    Hiking

Posted 2020-October-22, 10:28

Even if you are playing that X shows Spades here, I'd still bid 1NT with the West hand

You have Spades stopped
You have Clubs stopped
You have a 4-3-3-3 shape
You have the right point count

I think that this is the most descriptive bid.
Alderaan delenda est
1

#39 User is online   AL78 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 499
  • Joined: 2019-October-13

Posted 2020-October-22, 11:24

View Posthrothgar, on 2020-October-22, 10:28, said:

Even if you are playing that X shows Spades here, I'd still bid 1NT with the West hand

You have Spades stopped
You have Clubs stopped
You have a 4-3-3-3 shape
You have the right point count

I think that this is the most descriptive bid.


The only think is you don't have hearts stopped. Everything else is consistent.
0

#40 User is online   bluenikki 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 209
  • Joined: 2019-October-14

Posted 2020-October-22, 11:34

View Postmycroft, on 2020-October-22, 10:10, said:

(or you don't have the 8-card fit with the 4-1 break)


When the goose-psycher has the moral equivalence of 5432, a 4-3 fit in the suit could well be your best strain: cross-ruffs with no over-ruff.

Avoiding having to guess what minor to bid first is a trivial consideration.
0

Share this topic:


  • 4 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users