[Winstonm]

[QUOTE] This also means that 1S-2H-2S-4S shows no shortness in either minor, and is a picture bid.

Thanks for the explanation, Ben. It does make sense. I simply had not made that extension of logic as I use the picture bid also to deny first and second round controls in the unbids.

So if I understand you correctly, this splinter is exactly like the "picture" bid but you splinter in the one control you do possess. Hmmm. Good point.

WinstonM

[Winstonm]

[QUOTE] Now as for your KQxx AKxxx x KJx hand, come on, you don't want to be asking that kind of question here. After you bid 4D, are you REALLY going to pass your partners 4S rebid?

To answer, Ben, yes I would because of our structure. Pard's 4S bid here could almost be painted on canvas: KQ109x, Kx, KJ10(x), xx(x). There is no safety at the 5-level so pass is mandatory.

However, that does not detract from your methods, which are making more and more sense the longer I ponder them. To compare the methods, with KQ109x, Kx, xxx, Axx verses AJxx, AQJxx, x, xxx we could easily miss slam but with your methods it would be a snap - in my mind what makes this so good is that you can emphasize the quality of your heart suit (or minor if 1S-2C/D) and that allows partner to pretty much count tricks.

Good treatment. Now to convince partner...this could get ugly, LoL.

WinstonM

[whereagles]

luke warm, on Jun 5 2005, 01:56 PM, said:

yes, but why not

1♠ : 2♥
2♠ : 4♦
4NT

with clubs stopped? on the other hand, opener can just bid 4♠ with duplication in diamonds

That sequence is not very good because opener has a min and quite probably won't know what to do after the response to RKCB. It is responder who knows what to do with the response to RKCB, so resp should be the one trying to manoever the bidding into him being able to do RKCBing.

In other words, by letting opener do RKCB, you relegating the decision to the weaker hand, who rates to underevaluate the combined potential.

[Walddk]

3♠ is the clear winner in my opinion. We play 2/1, right?, so let's take advantage of the system. Soon I will learn where my partner comes from:

4♠: I shouldn't have opened 1♠. Was more like a weak 2.

3N: Serious, start cue bidding partner. Now 4♦ is very convenient, is it not?

4m: Cue bid, not seriously interested in slam.

Roland

[Rebound]

Walddk, on Jun 5 2005, 01:42 PM, said:

3♠ is the clear winner in my opinion. We play 2/1, right?, so let's take advantage of the system. Soon I will learn where my partner comes from:

4♠: I shouldn't have opened 1♠. Was more like a weak 2.

3N: Serious, start cue bidding partner. Now 4♦ is very convenient, is it not?

4m: Cue bid, not seriously interested in slam.

Roland

Just my 2 cents - I love the treatment described by Inquiry and if I could be sure partner was playing it too then 4♦ would be the perfect call. However, with my regular partners, playing serious 3NT or not, they will know that a cuebid is practically mandatory after 1♠-2♥-2♠-3♠, and isn't that what you want?

[anthony]

I chose a title of "evaluation" for this quiz, because i think that's exactly the key word here for our discussion.

The main difference between 3S and 4D advocates, in my opinion, is how they evaluate this 4612 shape and it's 2A's.

4D= I like the hand, but i still need some help in H and C suit if pd has opened a minimum hand. 4S will be a good spot if pd choose to stay there.

3S= I would still painfully doubt whether I should pass or not, when pd retreated to 4S after a 4D splinter. As WHEREEAGLES puts it: "in fact, the hand is so strong after 1♠ that it only requires us to know ONE thing about pard's hand: does he have club control? "

I like Ben's version of a "delayed splinter" here: strength mostly in Spades and Hearts, and no first and second control in club. But the question is, does 4D promise a SIX-card heart suit with AQJ?

For example, if pd holds KQxxx x Kxx Axxx, or Kxxxxx x KQx Axx, pretty good slam and we should reach it, but pd quite unlikely to advance after my 4D, unless he knows the length in my suit. The sixth heart makes a significant difference in how good the slam is.

After 3S, I can check club controls, I can check HK, I can check keycards and trump Q using RKC ... the price is we must go to 5 level, on a bad day pd might go down 1 there (with serious 3NT, some players will probably pass after a 3S 4C 4D 4S sequence, I believe many will still keep going on).

Bye the way, 3S has an additional benefit: it doesn't show first lead to opps so clearly as 4D does. When pd holds something like Kxxxx xx AQx Axx, both 3S and 4D will take us to 6H, you surely hope they will lead a diamond instead of a club.

So, I'm on the 3S side. This is a 5.5-loser hand and it's VERY strong in my eyes. I'm willing to pay the price of stopping at 5 level, in order to reach a good slam when 4D will fail under some layouts.

The actual hand pd held in real life will not be offered. This is a BBS discussion, not a match after all. Dont want anyone here be influenced by that scoreboard.

[luke warm]

whereagles, on Jun 5 2005, 11:35 AM, said:

luke warm, on Jun 5 2005, 01:56 PM, said:

yes, but why not

1♠ : 2♥
2♠ : 4♦
4NT

with clubs stopped? on the other hand, opener can just bid 4♠ with duplication in diamonds

That sequence is not very good because opener has a min and quite probably won't know what to do after the response to RKCB. It is responder who knows what to do with the response to RKCB, so resp should be the one trying to manoever the bidding into him being able to do RKCBing.

In other words, by letting opener do RKCB, you relegating the decision to the weaker hand, who rates to underevaluate the combined potential.

i don't think i made myself understood.. *if* opener is interested in slam, he has a club control by default... so he isn't minimum... he knows i have no club control, so if he does and if my diamond shortness helps him, he can look.. there's no need for responder to bid 4nt after denying a club control, showing 4 card support *and* showing s/v diamond.. imo

[pigpenz]

i might go for 3♥ again and if partner can raise that i will get excited

[Fluffy]

Rebound, on Jun 5 2005, 06:07 PM, said:

Just my 2 cents - I love the treatment described by Inquiry and if I could be sure partner was playing it too then 4♦ would be the perfect call.

I think you do because it works like a charm here, when you are deal ♠AJxx, ♥AQJxx ♦x ♣Kxx you will think otherwise.

Of course its matter of frequency, albeit I believe Ben's treatment has better frequency than standard, I think the difference is not worth another agreement to forget.

[inquiry]

Fluffy, on Jun 5 2005, 07:31 PM, said:

Rebound, on Jun 5 2005, 06:07 PM, said:

Just my 2 cents - I love the treatment described by Inquiry and if I could be sure partner was playing it too then 4♦ would be the perfect call.

I think you do because it works like a charm here, when you are deal ♠AJxx, ♥AQJxx ♦x ♣Kxx you will think otherwise.

Of course its matter of frequency, albeit I believe Ben's treatment has better frequency than standard, I think the difference is not worth another agreement to forget.

With this hand, I happily bid 3♠, and take advantage of serious 3NT and mandatory cue-bidding. I see no problem. If partner bids 4♦ (first or second round control in diamonds, no club control, no slam interest, thus minimum, minimum since 2♠ already tended to be weak), I will bid 4♥, last train, showing a club control and still a slam try. Partner with fitting heart king here will carry on, with out it, will signoff unless he has singleton heart and sixth spade. After all, we can easily be off first two clubs on a club lead.. .so stopping will not be that bad, even when he has the heart king.

[Antoine Fourrière]

4♣, false splinter, to be followed by RKCB. With a semisolid side suit, a singleton and a doubleton, the proposed hand doesn't scream for evaluation (unless you lack two key cards) but for concealment, and I would have preferred a dull Jacoby 2N (which opening leader would have no reason to suspect), followed by 4N. If you manage to avoid the club lead, there are enough chances you will be able to play the heart suit for no loser.