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What does this show 2/1 ACBL

#1 User is offline   dickiegera 

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Posted 2020-August-13, 18:18

What is 3 NT.



I was told to be believe that it showed about 20pts with a void or singleton in


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#2 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2020-August-13, 18:35

It's not really a point count but a trick count. It's slightly gambling, a running diamond suit (or reasonable hope it will run), prob ~16+ hcp, with stoppers in the unbids, and 8+-ish tricks, hoping for partner to provide a stopper in the suit he bid (here spades), and a trick somewhere or hope the lead gives the 9th trick. Something too strong for a 3 diamond rebid, where you think partner will pass too many hands where 3nt is a decent gamble.

It's often short in spades, but could be a doubleton. Tripleton spade would be pretty weird.

Partner is of course allowed to continue if he thinks slam is possible in diamonds or NT facing such a hand. But with spades should assume spade misfit.
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#3 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2020-August-13, 20:10

Decent hand with long running diamonds. NOT a 20 count.

I'd expect something like xx Kx AKQTxxx Ax maybe.
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#4 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-August-14, 03:28

View PostTylerE, on 2020-August-13, 20:10, said:

Decent hand with long running diamonds. NOT a 20 count.

I'd expect something like xx Kx AKQTxxx Ax maybe.


This is the standard interpretation, we actually play it ad something different (4441 with support) so that some other sequences guarantee 5 in opener's first suit but whatever it means it should have a very precise meaning as it consumes a lot of space.
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#5 User is offline   Mr Dale 

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Posted 2020-August-14, 06:49

In acol it shows exactly 19 points. If you had 20 points you would have opened 2NT.
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#6 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2020-August-14, 07:03

View PostMr Dale, on 2020-August-14, 06:49, said:

In acol it shows exactly 19 points. If you had 20 points you would have opened 2NT.


I think that's pretty old school

Most people play a 2N rebid as 18-19 and 3N as some sort of gamble with a 6 card suit
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#7 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-August-14, 12:12

View PostTylerE, on 2020-August-13, 20:10, said:

Decent hand with long running diamonds. NOT a 20 count.

I'd expect something like xx Kx AKQTxxx Ax maybe.


Ax in hearts instead of Kx, sure.

As it is, a spade stop still leads you with 8 only. As Terence Reese wrote long ago, the partnership needs stoppers, a suit to run, and *aces*.

Carl
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#8 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2020-August-14, 13:24

Stoppers are for bottles. Partner responded. Any heart lead is coming up to my Kx.
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#9 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2020-August-14, 13:30

View Postbluenikki, on 2020-August-14, 12:12, said:

Ax in hearts instead of Kx, sure.

As it is, a spade stop still leads you with 8 only. As Terence Reese wrote long ago, the partnership needs stoppers, a suit to run, and *aces*.

Carl


Waiting for having both side suit aces is way too conservative IMO. Assuming spade stop and diamonds run, a heart lead gives the 9th trick immediately. Yes, it's possible that they lead clubs, partner has no help for a 2nd stop, and neither major suit ace. But you are fine if he has either ace, or a 2nd club stop and HQ, or 2nd club stop and you can get a trick in spades without hearts being run on you. There's just a lot of ways things can work out.

If you bid only 3D with this you will find yourself underbid a lot more times than you beating pairs going down in 3nt, in my estimation.

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#10 User is offline   crapdown4 

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Posted 2020-August-14, 17:44

Pretty simple. "Pard, I think I can make 3NT under my own power as long as they can't rape us in spades, and I'm hoping you at least have enough in the suit to prevent that from happening."

Point count is irrelevant here.
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#11 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-August-14, 19:23

View PostTylerE, on 2020-August-14, 13:24, said:

Stoppers are for bottles. Partner responded. Any heart lead is coming up to my Kx.


what play have you if they lead a club?
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#12 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-August-14, 19:34

View PostStephen Tu, on 2020-August-14, 13:30, said:

Waiting for having both side suit aces is way too conservative IMO. Assuming spade stop and diamonds run, a heart lead gives the 9th trick immediately. Yes, it's possible that they lead clubs, partner has no help for a 2nd stop, and neither major suit ace. But you are fine if he has either ace, or a 2nd club stop and HQ, or 2nd club stop and you can get a trick in spades without hearts being run on you. There's just a lot of ways things can work out.

If you bid only 3D with this you will find yourself underbid a lot more times than you beating pairs going down in 3nt, in my estimation.



After 3NT goes down twice with the same partner, he will know he can't trust you and will stick you in 5D.
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#13 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2020-August-14, 19:55

Normal human beings congratulate you on making the correct bid even on the times it doesn't work out, rather than try to sabotage their own scores and confidence.
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#14 User is offline   Huibertus 

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Posted 2020-August-15, 04:33

I have used this in the past to exactly show a good 6card minor and exactly 3 card support for the major in the 16-19 HCP range. A very usefull meaning IMHO.
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#15 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-August-15, 05:33

View PostHuibertus, on 2020-August-15, 04:33, said:

I have used this in the past to exactly show a good 6card minor and exactly 3 card support for the major in the 16-19 HCP range. A very usefull meaning IMHO.


We use a GF unbal 2N to deal with that hand which you can do playing weak NT and a wide range 1N rebid, but if you play strong NT it's not a bad use.
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#16 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-August-15, 07:11

View Postsmerriman, on 2020-August-14, 19:55, said:

Normal human beings congratulate you on making the correct bid even on the times it doesn't work out, rather than try to sabotage their own scores and confidence.


"correct bid" ha

The bid says "I have 9 tricks, absent extremely bad splits. if you stop your bid suit, we have 3NT."

If that is a lie more than once (having only 8), why should your partner ever believe you?
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#17 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2020-August-15, 09:22

View Postbluenikki, on 2020-August-15, 07:11, said:

"correct bid" ha

The bid says "I have 9 tricks, absent extremely bad splits. if you stop your bid suit, we have 3NT."

If that is a lie more than once (having only 8), why should your partner ever believe you?


The bid does not say "I have 9 tricks". It says 3nt is a percentage gamble. It's not an iron-clad guarantee that it will make. It is a belief that 3nt will make more often than not opposite a minimum 1S response that wouldn't move over a 3D rebid, and that bidding 3nt right now is the most descriptive bid and will work better than other bids the majority of the time. What is your alternative rebid, 3D? Partner will pass with some frequency, you rack up 110/130/150, rest of field takes 600/630 or 400/430 NV.

Even when we go down, partner will continue to believe & trust me on future boards, because they will see that it was a reasonable gamble even if it failed this time, and plus it wasn't a "lie" in the first place as I never promised "9 tricks guaranteed". (My first post said 8+-ish tricks).

Bridge is a probabilistic game, not one of 100% guarantees. If you wait for game to be 90% to bid it, you are losing out on a lot of games that the field is bidding and making. The rest of us are willing to fail in 3nt a couple times, if for every couple times we go down in 3nt while you go plus, we rack up 3,4,5,6 games that you miss. We are going to pick up a lot of matchpoints (or IMPs) vs you on average. Not every time, but most times.
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#18 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2020-August-15, 14:21

Stephen Tu has it right, although I don't require 16+ HCP for this bid.

Something like:

xx xx AKQxxxx Ax

looks just fine to me. But what if the opponents lead hearts, you say? Well:

1. The opponents haven't bid hearts. Maybe partner has a few including a high card.

2. LHO may not have a H lead. Maybe he has a club lead.

3. If he does lead H, maybe partner has 3 and the spade A and H are 4-4.

4. I only really have two defensive tricks against a heart contract. If I go set, maybe the opponents actually have us outgunned.

Especially in IMPs, 3NT is the %age bid on a hand like this. Sure, maybe you go set, but would you rather be declarer making a game unless the opponents guess right or would you rather be a defender on a guess that loses 10 if its wrong?

Cheers,
Mike
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