[Free]

You pick up this hand, everybody playing SAYC full and we're white, they are red:

S: KJ95
H: Q72
D: A764
C: J9

The bidding goes as follows (you're north):

N E S W
p
p 1C 1NT Dbl
2C p 2H 3H
?

Yes, you descide to pass first round...
The 2H bid of south is probably a 4-card H, answer to stayman (no systems discussed).

I'll post the rest of the deal later...

[inquiry]

Quote

You pick up this hand, everybody playing SAYC full and we're white, they are red:

S: KJ95
H: Q72
D: A764
C: J9

The bidding goes as follows (you're north):

N E S W
p
p 1C 1NT Dbl
2C p 2H 3H
?

Yes, you descide to pass first round...
The 2H bid of south is probably a 4-card H, answer to stayman (no systems discussed).

I'll post the rest of the deal later...

Let me be among the first to say.... what the heck was 2C. They doubled your partners 1NT and they are red. You have a balanced hand and 11 hcp (total lets say minimum 26 for you). Just redouble 1NT.. and either play that, or hit what they run too.

Next, you they are vul, and they are at 3 of your partner's suit and you are not vul? Am I missing something... TAKE THE MONEY....double...

This seems silly all around unless someone is playing comic NT or overcall structure...but this was announced as SAYC.


Ben

[hrothgar]

There is something rotten in Denmark

LHO opened 1C,
Partner overcalled 1NT,
RHO doubled for penalties,
And I am sitting on a decent enough 11 count.

Given the vulnerability, I'm more than a bit suspicious of partner's overcall.

In any case, I would have passed RHO's penalty double.
1NTX might very well be out best contract.
If not, I expect partner to run to a long suit.

I think that XX should be SOS, starting a scrambling sequence

[keylime]

Here's a novel thought -- why don't people actively seek to penalize the opponents in auctions likes this? For the record, I do not use SOS redoubles except in one very specific situation, and even then it can be converted (the only time is when it is doubtful 3NT can be made after a competitive sequence - XX expresses doubt and asks for clarification).

I admittedly enjoy the double and redouble, especially at IMPS. Also, what about low level penalty doubles? Those are lost upon many...

D.

[the hog]

Why on earth the 2C bid unless I am missing something? xx if that is to play, else pass and play 1NT x. Or pass if you are playing swine - the convention, not the opponents - and then pass the xx.I am also doubling any of their run outs.

If partner pulls any of these bids, he probably psyched.

[luis]

I can't understand this either, after they double 1NT we have a clear pass (assuming redouble is SOS) then you will play 1ntx making many or double any partscore that they may want to play.
Pass and start to polish your red cards.

[Codo]

Hi Free,

from your comments I think, that you had know, that 2 Club was silly in a normal game. So why did you or pd bid it?
Maybe it was too hot and you/he missed the double?
But then, you had not asked....

Even opposite a comic or polish Nt, anybody would like to sit 1 NT x.

So North really believed his opps and believes, that his pd did a psych. As this is the only idea, which has a little sense for me, I will pass 3 Heart. Maybe the opps are not sure what is going on too and reach the wrong goal or place the High cards in the wrong hand.
The disadvantage is clear: If my pd did not psych but one of the opps did, I just told my pd, that I have a real weak hand and we will reach a poor score now.

But when I believed my opps more then my pd, I have to pay the price from time t time...

Kind Regards

Roland

[luis]

If you are concerned about a psyche you should assume pd has not psyched unless it is evident (example: he rescues himself after being doubled, or retreats from a supported suit when doubled, etc)
But if you are concerned about pd "seriousness" the best option is not to trust pd nor the opps, trust the vulnerability. That can also be read as: if pd is white and they are red trust them, if they are white and you are red trust pd.

[flytoox]

simply rdbl after dbl of pd's 1NT. Whereever they run, u will dbl them.

fly

[luis]

Rdbl can be interpreted as SOS.

[flytoox]

Quote

Rdbl can be interpreted as SOS.

Hi, Luis, I doubt the value of rdbl as SOS, if 1NT is a true NT, then if you want to run, better u run first rather than pd run first.

[hrothgar]

I'll go one step further:

Redouble should (must???) be interpreted as SOS

On this hand, you would obviously like to be able to redouble 1NT to play.
However, it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to hold the hand that you have if the rest of the auction is legitimate. I can't construct a hand in which I hold an 11 count and

(a) LHO has a legitimate 3rd seat opening
( CHO has a 15+ - 18 1NT over call
© RHO has a penalty double

Bidding systems need to cater to common occurences:
In this case, if the first three bids are legitimate, my own hand should be broke.
Almost by definition, if I am entering the auction it must be part of a scrambling sequence trying to escape from 1NTX.

Defining a redouble as showing values will certainly help your side sort out your values if the opponents have decided to psyche red versus white. I prefer to use this bid to cater towards a bidding sequence that might occur this century.

[Free]

I think it is time I explain what was going on. I was sitting in South (I made the 1NT overcall). This was my hand:

S T643
H 9653
D 32
C A54

In my opinion, it should 've been clear that my bid was a psyche! If opponents Dbl a 1NT overcall, it's for penalties, and if you have 11HCP and partner has about 15 that Dbl is impossible. So from the second time North can bid and KNOWS what's going on, a 2C-bid isn't that bad (we're escaping to a playable contract to go maximum -3 doubled). But when opponents even cuebid on 3-level then your work is done and you should pass or double (lead directing stuff).

Now, what happened at the table was realy crazy! My partner in North felt like bidding 3NT (!!!), East doubled and we went -6. I wanted to know if it was clear for you guys that the 1NT overcall was a psyche...

[hrothgar]

Quote

Quote

Rdbl can be interpreted as SOS.

Hi, Luis, I doubt the value of rdbl as SOS, if 1NT is a true NT, then if you want to run, better u run first rather than pd run first.

It might be worth considering typical run out sequences over weak NTs.
Traditionally, running to a new suit suggests a very specific place to play.
In some systems, he who runs is showing a one suiter; in others, he is showing a specific two suiter.

However, responder also needs to be able to send the message that 1NTX is a bad place to play, however, I don't know where we should go. This normally instigates a scrabling sequence in which players bid 4 card suits up the line.

[luis]

Quote

In my opinion, it should 've been clear that my bid was a psyche! If opponents Dbl a 1NT overcall, it's for penalties, and if you have 11HCP and partner has about 15 that Dbl is impossible. So from the second time North can bid and KNOWS what's going on, a 2C-bid isn't that bad (we're escaping to a playable contract to go maximum -3 doubled). But when opponents even cuebid on 3-level then your work is done and you should pass or double (lead directing stuff).

Nonsense, opener may have a semi-psychic 1c opening in third position, with lead-directional clubs. Something like a weak 2c bid which doesn't exist. North doesn't know and can't know what is going on, if he "fields" the psyche then you are subject to a penalty and an adjustment since that would mean you have an undisclosed agreement to psyche 1nt bids. The 2c bid is either illegal or terrible and can easily be both. If you want to make your psyche clear then you should run from 1nt doubled, not your pd.

Anyway I don't see any value in this hand from a bridge bidding perspective. It's neither interest from a LAW perspective, you are fielding a psyche, adjusted score and procedural penalty, a visit to the ethics comitee and that's all....

[hrothgar]

Nonsense, opener may have a semi-psychic 1c opening in third position, with lead-directional clubs. Something like a weak 2c bid which doesn't exist. North doesn't know and can't know what is going on, if he "fields" the psyche then you are subject to a penalty and an adjustment since that would mean you have an undisclosed agreement to psyche 1nt bids.

Luis, I've never played with ANY of the individuals involved, and I knew exactly what was going on. General bridge knowledge strongly suggests that the 1NT bid was a psyche.

I don't think that there should be any issue that responder is "fielding" a psyche when its this bleeding obvious.

[inquiry]

Quote

Rdbl can be interpreted as SOS.

Hi Luis,

I think in SAYC redbl of 1NT is to play. SAYC is very, very vanilla. Pass of 1NTx isn't real bad, if you can make 3NT, you will be +380 instead of +400 so you lose an imp. If you can make an overtrick, or only make 2NT, you win a little for +180 versus +120 (or -50) or +480 instead of +430 so you pick up small swings. The big imps are to be made for the redouble that kick you up into game, or you get a good chance to swing the hammer at their vulnerable heads.

If you were playing cooperative runouts or swine, you can pass and then pass partners redouble. But of course, such methods are not available in the question as posed.

Now to the question of who psyched? Despite the vulnerability, I think it is not your partner. Here is why: if you psych a 1NT overcall, and partner bids 2C... you PASS. If they let you play 2C undoubled... great, most is minus 400 if you fail to win a trick, versus their grand slam in clubs. If on the other hand, if they double back in and your partner now bids 2H you know exactly waht is going on and don't jump to game and get hammered, and you don't double them if they out bid you.

In addition, despite the vul, EAST who heard his partner make a penalty double of 1NT choose to pass over 2C...giving your partner a chance to bail out with a pass if psyched (over a double, his bid might not be so clear). So despite the vul, it looks like EAST is the one who pscyhed.

Now, the hand wouldn't be here if Free didn't want to show the value of comic 1NT overcall, so we can all guess that West is void in hearts and partner is looking at some completely bust hand and no real hcp.... but one would not want to be on a committee to discuss this hand after North pulled 1NT-x.... as that would look suspeciously like North was prepared for the gardner (comic) NT. Which, of course, was not announced as part of the SAYC thingee....

Ben

[luis]

Quote

Luis, I've never played with ANY of the individuals involved, and I knew exactly what was going on. General bridge knowledge strongly suggests that the 1NT bid was a psyche.
I don't think that there should be any issue that responder is "fielding" a psyche when its this bleeding obvious.

Error, you guessed what was going on but bid normally. You said you would have passed the dbl so you are not fielding the psyche you are just guessing pd has psyched. OTOH this guy DID bid 2c so he fielded his pd psyche and is subject to an obvious adjusted score, and a likely procedural penalty.

And I disagree that this is an obvious situation, a player opened 1c in third position and the other overcalled 1nt, after dbl and seeing your hand we can guess that one is lying but why it has to be pd? The 1c opener can easily have opened on 0 HCP or a weak hand with some clubs to suggest a lead.
Pd psyche when his LHO is a passed hand is a bad bid, LHO can now easily double to show values and your side will be in bridge trouble and legal trouble.
I don't like any bid at all.
And finally the guy with 11 coud've just opened 1d.

[flytoox]

Quote

I'll go one step further:

Redouble should (must???) be interpreted as SOS

On this hand, you would obviously like to be able to redouble 1NT to play.
However, it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to hold the hand that you have if the rest of the auction is legitimate. I can't construct a hand in which I hold an 11 count and

(a) LHO has a legitimate 3rd seat opening
( CHO has a 15+ - 18 1NT over call
© RHO has a penalty double

Bidding systems need to cater to common occurences:
In this case, if the first three bids are legitimate, my own hand should be broke.
Almost by definition, if I am entering the auction it must be part of a scrambling sequence trying to escape from 1NTX.

Defining a redouble as showing values will certainly help your side sort out your values if the opponents have decided to psyche red versus white. I prefer to use this bid to cater towards a bidding sequence that might occur this century.

In this sequence, it cant be pd to psychi, coz he is in 4th seat, no need to do it. If there is any psychi bid, it must be ur LHO.

[flytoox]

Quote

I think it is time I explain what was going on. I was sitting in South (I made the 1NT overcall). This was my hand:

S T643
H 9653
D 32
C A54

In my opinion, it should 've been clear that my bid was a psyche! If opponents Dbl a 1NT overcall, it's for penalties, and if you have 11HCP and partner has about 15 that Dbl is impossible. So from the second time North can bid and KNOWS what's going on, a 2C-bid isn't that bad (we're escaping to a playable contract to go maximum -3 doubled). But when opponents even cuebid on 3-level then your work is done and you should pass or double (lead directing stuff).

Now, what happened at the table was realy crazy! My partner in North felt like bidding 3NT (!!!), East doubled and we went -6. I wanted to know if it was clear for you guys that the 1NT overcall was a psyche...

When psychi backfired, blaming pd is the last thing you should do.