[luke warm]

i talked about this one a little bit with ron... whatcha think?

1nt=12-15
1c=16+ or 11-15 with 6+ clubs

• 1d=0-9, 4+ hearts
  
• 1h=0-9, 4+ spades
  
• 1s=0-9, no 4 cd M
  
• 1nt=10+

1d=5/4 canape, could have 4 clubs, *or* 6+ diamonds, 11-15
1h=5/4 canape (same club thing), or 6+ hearts, 11-15
1s=same
2c=5+ diamonds and 5+ hearts, 11-15 OR 6+ hearts weak
2d=5+ hearts and 5+ spades, 11-15, OR 6+ spades weak
2h=5+ spades and 5+ clubs, 11-15, OR 6+ clubs weak
2s=5+ clubs and 5+ diamonds, 11-15, OR 6+ diamonds weak
2nt=5+ clubs and hearts OR 5+ diamonds and spades, 11-15

responses aren't very difficult... difficulties? leave much out?

[tysen2k]

It seems pretty good. I like it. The 1♣ bid might be a little overloaded, but doesn't seem too bad. Opener might have a problem with 16+ and long clubs, especially with interference.

Am I reading it right that the 1♦/1♥/1♠ bids never have exactly 5 cards unless they are 5/4 with clubs?
How do you handle 4441 hands?

[luke warm]

right, 1d/h/s are always 4 unless the 2nd suit is clubs... this part is from the weiss club system, used with herbert relays to find 2nd suit... works well and some of the better players who post here have told me that it's difficult to defend

i'm trying to incorporate preemptive 2 bids into the weiss structure, which uses intermediate 2's... those work well, but i'm thinking you can have your cake and eat it too... i think i'll be able to do it using the 2 bids i show, and i also think the responses can be logical and fairly simple

as for the 1nt bid, i prefer any balanced hand, including 5 cd M... but i confess to a bias toward puppet stayman and game forcing 2D stayman, a`la truscott/rosenkrantz

yes, the interference thing vs. 1C is a problem, but i don't see it being any moreso than over any 1C bid, even polish.. of course all of this is subject to refinement, suggestion, etc

oops, the 4441 5440 hands... that's the only thing i haven't quite gotten yet... in weiss, 2c is that bid.. maybe it's possible to keep it and lose something somewhere... or maybe open 1nt if w/in the range? hell, maybe even 1D/1H

edit:

hey tyson, luis posted this hand in another thread:

♠ ATx
♥ AKQTxx
♦ AKx
♣ J

♠ Jxxxx
♥ Jx
♦ Qx
♣ KTxx

on the responses to 1C i show above, it might be better to use control showing...

• 1d=0-2
  
• 1h=3
  
• 1s=4
  
• 1nt=5+

here's a suggested bidding using controls, tell me what you think.. north dealt

1c : 1d
2h : 3h (2h shows self sustaining suit, big hand)
3s : 3nt (3s is cab, 3nt is crap but not short crap lol)
4h

with no controls and no shortage in spades and only 1 control opposite, slam doesn't seem likely

[tysen2k]

What about:

2C = any 4441/5440
2D = H&S or H&C or weak H
2H = S&C or S&D or weak S
2S = D&H or D&C or weak D
2N = weak C

I guess you could also move the D&C option to 2N if you wanted.

[luke warm]

the purpose of the 2 bids i posted first is to try to keep them gcc legal.. i'm not sure but i *think* they are ('cept for the 2nt bid), as long as there is an anchor suit... all the ones i showed, except 2nt, have an anchor

on the 3 suited hands, i need to think... not an easy task, i need a drink

[tysen2k]

luke warm, on May 24 2005, 05:39 PM, said:

on the responses to 1C i show above, it might be better to use control showing...

• 1d=0-2
  
  
• 1h=3
  
  
• 1s=4
  
  
• 1nt=5+

here's a suggested bidding using controls, tell me what you think

I personally don't like immediate control showing. Showing your suits/shape first is much better I think.

[tysen2k]

luke warm, on May 24 2005, 06:13 PM, said:

the purpose of the 2 bids i posted first is to try to keep them gcc legal.. i'm not sure but i *think* they are ('cept for the 2nt bid), as long as there is an anchor suit... all the ones i showed, except 2nt, have an anchor

on the 3 suited hands, i need to think... not an easy task, i need a drink

The 2 bids (except 2N like you said) actually aren't GCC legal. They are Mid-chart though. To be GCC you'd have to make it so that the anchor suit was the suit bid (2C has to have clubs always). Either that or it can only be a 2 suiter (both known suits - so 2C can be D&H but nothing else).

[luke warm]

the hand in question is very hard to bid... it might be possible to construct responses geared to it, but that doesn't seem smart... using the f/n style, opener has to jump to show his hearts ... if accepts the xfer at the 1 level, he can be passed... with only 3 card support, he can hardly jump to 2s... my first thought was this bidding, but the danger is a pass

1c : 1h (0-9, 4+ spades)
1s : 2c (2c shows 5+ spades and a side club suit, else 1nt to show 4 spades only)
3h : 4h

but now there's the same problem luis faced... opener would like to explore slam but even the 5 level is in trouble... not sure of the best way... alternatively,

1c : 1h
3h : 4h

now opener hides 3 card spade support and still has the same slam problem... whew, what a quandary

Quote

The 2 bids (except 2N like you said) actually aren't GCC legal. They are Mid-chart though. To be GCC you'd have to make it so that the anchor suit was the suit bid (2C has to have clubs always). Either that or it can only be a 2 suiter (both known suits - so 2C can be D&H but nothing else).

ahhhh... ok, thx

[tysen2k]

luke warm, on May 24 2005, 06:25 PM, said:

the hand in question is very hard to bid... it might be possible to construct responses geared to it, but that doesn't seem smart... using the f/n style, opener has to jump to show his hearts ... if accepts the xfer at the 1 level, he can be passed... with only 3 card support, he can hardly jump to 2s... my first thought was this bidding, but the danger is a pass

1c : 1h (0-9, 4+ spades)
1s : 2c (2c shows 5+ spades and a side club suit, else 1nt to show 4 spades only)
3h : 4h

but now there's the same problem louis faced... opener would like to explore slam but even the 5 level is in trouble... not sure of the best way...

I'd make 1C - 1H; 1S be a forcing bid. This should confirm the 16+ hand type. The 2-level should be safe especially if opener has spade support. Plus if responder rebids 1N with only 4 spades, you can stop there.

There will always be hands that have difficultly with whatever system you come up with. I'm worried that your difficulty will be when opener has 16+ and long clubs. What's your rebid when partner responds with one of the 0-9 bids? I assume 2C has to cover the 11-15 club hands.

[luke warm]

i think you're right... maybe 1c is overloaded, or maybe i'm trying too hard to cover all bases... maybe i can make 1nt=12-15 or 11-15 with clubs? presently, 1nt/2c is invitational puppet so
1nt : 2c
3c
can show 11-15 club hand... it has to be 6+ clubs w/out 4 card suit else a one bid.. that hurts in one spot, if the 2c bid was made w/ short clubs (garbage)... oh well

[glen1]

A One-Notrump OPening Marionette by Paul Glick in The Bridge World, September 2002, suggested a Precision system where the 1NT opening shows 5 clubs and a side four card suit, 11-15.

A variation of this could be a Romex 1NT multi system. Here 1NT shows a six card suit or longer suit, no second suit, 11-15. Partner uses pass or correct two level responses, or bids 2NT to ask. For example,

1NT-2C-?, now pass=6+Cs, 2d=6+Ds, 2h=6+Hs, 2s=6+s, 3X=natural with seven card suit and maximum.

Now 1D has to handle balanced 12-15, or you can bid 1H or 1S with balanced 12-15 and 4 or 5 in the major, and 1D only if no four card major.

Note that Herbert relays are not ACBL GCC legal, which has bugged canape system designers in North America a long time.

[bestguru]

Anybody have a link describing Herbert relays?

[luke warm]

i've never found a link... basically it's this.. over 1d/h/s the next suit shows an agreed point range (usually 0-10 or so) and is not forcing... any suit bid that skips the next suit shows the same range, with 5+ cards.. so 1h : 2d shows 0-10 (usually it's more than 0 heheh) and 5+ diamonds, and an inability or unwillingness to play in either of opener's suits... it is not forcing

there are forcing bids, depending on the opening... 1nt is one, it shows 10+ hcp any shape, further bids describe the hands

[luke warm]

tysen said:

I'd make 1C - 1H; 1S be a forcing bid.  This should confirm the 16+ hand type.  The 2-level should be safe especially if opener has spade support.  Plus if responder rebids 1N with only 4 spades, you can stop there.

yes i like this, it seems to lose nothing.. however if put clubs in with nt 1c will always be 16+, as below:

tysen said:

There will always be hands that have difficultly with whatever system you come up with.  I'm worried that your difficulty will be when opener has 16+ and long clubs.  What's your rebid when partner responds with one of the 0-9 bids?  I assume 2C has to cover the 11-15 club hands.

ok, how's this? go ahead and make the 1nt opening be either 12-15 balanced or 11-15 with 6+ clubs? if responder bids 2c (invitational puppet), pass with 6 clubs and min, bid 3c with 6 and max, else bid the 5M or bid (usually) 2d

on the 2 bids...
2c=3 suited hands
2d=5d & 5h or hearts weak
2h=5h & 5s or spades weak
2s=5s & 5c or clubs weak
2nt=5c & 5d or diamonds weak (that might sorta suck)

one thing i like about the weiss 2c (3 suited) bid is the invitational brozel structure... 3d for instance is invite with diamonds and hearts

[awm]

Some observations:

(1) It's important to consider what will happen to your various bids in competition. It's fairly easy to devise a structure which will work well in a constructive auction. Canape where either suit can be longer (i.e. 1♠ can be 4♠ and 5+ second suit, or 5♠ and 4+ club, or 6+♠) tends to be awkward in competition. Two-way club methods similarly can be awkward in competition. Transfer preempts (especially when they guarantee the immediately-above suit always and have limited strength) tend to be much less effective than natural preempts against good players.

(2) None of this is going to be acbl general chart if that's what you're shooting for. Besides the two-level bids being mid-chart, your lowest-response showing 0-10 points and nothing about suits is mid-chart as well. Of course, perhaps you misspoke here.

[luke warm]

all good points, adam... yes, the herbert relays are not gcc legal... but i don't share your concern over the 1d/h/s bids... the opps can and will bid, of course, but it's a tad tougher if they know opener usually has another, longer, suit... i don't know the numbers, but it seems intuitively that 4/5 hands are more prevalent than 6+ one suited hands... this could be in error tho

as far as competitive bidding goes, i personally like neg free bids with the 2 way neg doubles... the whole concept might be faulty, as i said above it's based on my trying to have my cake and eat it too (11-15 one suited hands *and* preemptive bids, something that's presently difficult in a canape system)

i'll keep thinking on it, thanks to all for your input

[luke warm]

ok, i don't need the 2 bids to be 2-way... the 1 bids can handle those.. basic structure is

1nt=12-15 balanced or 11-15 w/ 6+ clubs
1c=16+, min 5 controls unless min balanced (16-18)
1d/h/s=11-15 canape (lower ranking of equal length) or 6+ in suit bid
2c=3 suited
2d/h/s=preemptive
2nt=club preempt

would appreciate comments on the diamond response to 1c before continuing, and the 1h response to 1d

1c
• 1d=0-9, 4 hearts
  • 1h=shows (usually) 3+ and relay for another 4 cd suit
    • 1s=clubs
      
    • 2c=diamonds
      
    • 2d=5 hearts, no other 4 pcs
      
    • 2h=spades
    
    
  • 1s=4+ denies 3 hearts unless setting trumps
    
  • 1nt=16-18
    
  • 2c=5+, usually denies 3 hearts
    
  • 2d=5+, usually denies 3 hearts
    
  • 2h=sets trumps, tab followed by cab
    
  • 2s=sets trumps, tab followed by cab
    
  • 2nt=19-21
    
  • 3c/3d=sets trumps, tab then cab

1d=11-15, 2 suited canape else 6+ diamonds
• 1h=0-10, look for 2nd suit unless rebid (then 0-10 with usually 6 hearts)
  • 1s=2nd suit, => diamonds
    
  • 1nt=marks clubs as 2nd suit with longer diamonds
    
  • 2c=clubs, longer than diamonds
    
  • 2d=6+, no 2nd (4 cd) suit
    
  • 2h=2nd suit, longer or equal to diamonds

[awm]

It seems like it'd be nice to clarify responder's strength at some point here, rather than immediately asking for second suit opposite a possible zero count. There's certainly some value to showing 4-card majors immediately instead of giving an immediate negative, but beyond that perhaps priority should go to strength. The range of "0-9" also seems weird, since 10 is not enough strength for a serious slam try but 9 is almost surely enough to force game. I guess the questions here are:

How does opener agree hearts in a non-forcing way?

Which of opener's followups after 1♣-1♦ are forcing? It seems silly to force with a minimum opposite a possible zero count, but if 1♠, 2♣, 2♦ are NF, what does opener do with substantial extras? Assuming opener doesn't wish to unilaterally set clubs as trump and force to game even opposite nothing, I see no available bid other than 2♣ in the methods you describe.

[glen1]

How about 1NT is 12-15 balanced or 11-15 with 6+♣s usually no major suit singleton/void. With 1-3-3-6 or 3-1-3-6 open 1♦ and rebid 2♣.

After 1♦-1♥, opener should be able to pass with 5+♥s.

I don't think 1♣-1♦ need promise ♥s.

[luke warm]

well i've spent a lot of time looking thru claus' Bridge Files and i honestly haven't seen too many that are vast improvements over the weiss club (which is based on neopolitan/blue)... granted, most are far too detailed to learn more than partially... there are many responses to the 1c opening, but it looks like most use either point count or a combination of point count/controls/shape

going by adam's and glen's posts, it makes sense for opener to know as soon as possible the combined strength of the hands.. as much fun as it is trying to reinvent the wheel, i don't think it's cost effective