[hrothgar]

Couple quick comments:

1. I'd treat this as a slam oriented single suited hand with diamonds

2. 1NT the Scanian Way has a good set of responses over a 2♠ range ask

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2019-September-21, 09:39, said:

Sure, I was thinking about the OP strong no trump situation which I imagine nekthen was referring to.

OK, but you asked why people were advocating the method, and it's probably because they play it (and may be in a weak NT system) but also 1N-3♦ in a strong NT setting, the hands are nearly the same strength, so you conceal the one that may have unexpected shape.

[pescetom]

phoenixmj, on 2019-September-21, 12:07, said:

Question about range ask - Since we have not played 4 way transfers, I have not looked at this before. I see a Robert Todd article on Rodwell 2S - size ask - which I am going to guess is the same thing????? On this, it appears that it addresses the situation where the responder has a 6 card club suit - but I am not seeing anything about a 6 card diamond suit.

The article briefly mentions something about a super-accept of a transfer to diamonds. So I am guessing that this means to transfer to diamonds, you respond 2N over 1N open, then if opener has a weak hand they bid 3c???? 3D would indicate a strong hand and diamond support? But now the responder is playing it and in the driver's seat for the next bid. In this case, still have the worthless doubleton issue. Or can you start cue bidding now to show controls since you have 'agreed on a suit".

Curious - does this come into play here? Do you have a good place for me to read about this?

No idea of where to read sorry, I picked it up from a post of mikeh here and then thought it through with the rest of my system and saw it fitted well - all I had to do was invert the like/dislike after diamond transfers.
It's very simple in principle, a direct bid of 2♠ over 1NT initially asks for strength with replies 2NT or 3♣. You can handle this both as a pure natural NT invite or as a transfer to clubs. So when you used to bid 1NT - 2NT - p this now becomes 1NT - 2♠ - 2NT - p. And when you used to bid 1NT - 2NT - 3NT - p this now becomes 1NT - 2P - 3C - 3NT - p. This is much better than using 4 way transfers without range check where you have to bid 1NT - 2C - 2X -2NT to invite, which means that opponents learn about X and can find a dangerous lead.

[dsLawsd]

All great discussions. Since most do not use Walsh these days it is good to have optional sets of agreements. The ones here I like.

RESEARCH: What I have done over the last 6 months is to pull down and save as a PDF many of the top pairs convention cards so I can see how they put things together and what their preferences are.

NOTE: In Walsh + Walsh Relays the heart transfer is two-way which transferor can then overrule by bidding 2♠ puppet to 2NT.
That allows for 2♠being used as MSS, 2NT is clubs and 3
♣ as diamonds. These days so many systems use the 3 level to show shortness at least 1-3-5-4 that perhaps that is more flexible.

VERDICT: A good partnership discussion that keeps notes and revisits them every few weeks or months.

[phoenixmj]

Here is what happened at our table. My partner bid 1N. I pondered (probably for a bit longer than recommended) and given our partnership agreements, I only saw bad things happening. So - I decided that getting the answers I really wanted was a long shot. I bid directly 6D. Which I made.

I noticed that fully 80 percent of the field did not get to slam. We were the only ones playing it in diamonds. The other slams were 6N. My guess is the bidding went, 1N, 4N, 6N. With the "best" lead, 6N goes down 1 - but only 1 of the 6N bidders went down. It was matchpoints so the 10 point premium meant that we got fewer points. But, I truly think it is the correct contract. The trick is - how to get there.

This was a common game hand - and unfortunately they did not do bidding analysis of this hand. But, the entire field (across the entire common game) had very few people getting to a slam of any kind, and about 20 percent of the slam bids were diamonds. The rest were NT.

I am attaching north and south's hand now.

---

So, let's assume that we did play 4way transfers. In this case, I would have said 2N - transfer to diamonds. If opener answered 3c, then let's assume that he has a minimum hand and then I should say 3D. If he says 3D, then let's assume he has a maximum hand.

So - now what? I still don't know if he has controls in spades and that is really critical to making slam of any stripe.

I was pleased with our result but felt unsatisfied about my bid. It just "felt" like a slam and definitely worth a shot - but it still does not feel right to bid 6D right off the bat.

[msjennifer]

phoenixmj, on 2019-September-21, 09:43, said:

Suppose north's hand is stronger - but still diamonds. If the bidding went 1N, 2N (transfer to d), 3c (opener has a minimum),

Now what - If north bids 3d I assume that opener will pass?
What could north bid to say - even with your minimum, we should be at least in game and likely in slam?

Thanks

Sir,Any bid other than 3D,(IN THE PRESENT CASE 3NT),is at least a game force.(OVER 3C SHOWING A MINIMUM). YES SIR, if North bids just 3D opener passes.I n the present deal the bidding would be 1NT-2NT-3D-3H-3S-3NT(denying any Ace outside but guaranteeing clubK or singleton)-6D.( club king /singleton is known already).

[pescetom]

phoenixmj, on 2019-September-21, 17:23, said:

So, let's assume that we did play 4way transfers. In this case, I would have said 2N - transfer to diamonds. If opener answered 3c, then let's assume that he has a minimum hand and then I should say 3D. If he says 3D, then let's assume he has a maximum hand.

So - now what? I still don't know if he has controls in spades and that is really critical to making slam of any stripe.

As previously discussed I think this should go 1NT 2NT 3♦ 4♦. South knowing that you have no singletons or voids is now likely to ask keycards rather than control bid, and over the reply of 2+Q he bids 6♦. It's far from certain, but better than a pure guess or risking 6NT.

[danhputnam]

Changing agreements is good, but when you were dealt this hand you had to bid within the structure you had. You didn't have a way to show this hand. So now you must guess. The key here is that you know more about partner's hand than you can show about yours, and you have limited ways to learn anything except how many aces he has or whether he has an extra J. I would probably bid 4C and bid 6NT if he has two. I wouldn't strongly consider a diamond contract. And I wouldn't ask partner to decide. Two final things to consider. 1NT-4NT would deny interest in the majors, and luckily you do have an honor in each. If partner is savvy enough to know you have a minor suit oriented hand, 4NT might work out. The other consideration is the field. If it is a strong aggressive field, you're more likely to be punished by bidding short. If it's a weak field, 3NT or 4NT is probably safe.

[maartenxq]

I suppose a direct 3 ♦means good ♦and slam interest. P cues, supports or signs off in 3 nt.

Another approach would be to start with 2 ♣and ask for minors afterwards if that method is available.

Maarten Baltussen

[phoenixmj]

---

These are all 4 hands. If south is playing 6N - then any spade lead from west can set the contract. The JS is best as it will be clear to east that they do not need to play the king unless the queen is played. South has to let west back in with the ace of clubs.

The field at our club the day we played was probably average for a club open game. Since it was a common game, I checked out some other club results where I feel the field is very strong - and the results were similar. Across the common game in general, a higher percentage got to slam. Diamond slam bid by 9 percent, NT slam bid by 19 percent, and the remaining bids were game or less.

Since south opened 1N, any NT contract will be played by south and it can be beaten. If N were playing the NT contract, then it can be made with any lead. With a low spade lead, south would have no choice but to take the finesse and it works.

6D can be made with any lead by either north or south.

Several people at my club hand indicated they had gone so far as asking for aces, but without all of them - the worthless doubleton kept them from bidding 6.

Certainly a "bad guess" to go to slam produces a zero on this board, since game is so very makeable. A good guess produced a good result that was outside the norm. At the time of the bidding - of course I had no idea if others would go to slam. There were definitely people playing in the room that I consider to be much more experienced and better players/bidders than I. And, I was painfully aware of the fact that we do not play 4way transfers yet and others did - putting them at an advantage for this hand. So, when strapped, I decided that missing the slam might well be outside the norm. So, it just came down to a guess and I will say, the hand just "felt" like a slam. Of course the keys to making it - were partner's good hearts to use for sluffs. Don't know how to find that out with bidding. The ace of spades was huge. Had it been the ace of clubs - a spade lead might set the contract unless partner had the king of spades. And - the ace of diamonds. But, with a NT open, I convinced myself that the points partner had would do the trick - at least a 50 percent shot.

[msjennifer]

msjennifer, on 2019-September-22, 01:05, said:

Sir,Any bid other than 3D,(IN THE PRESENT CASE 3NT),is at least a game force.(OVER 3C SHOWING A MINIMUM). YES SIR, if North bids just 3D opener passes.I n the present deal the bidding would be 1NT-2NT-3D-3H-3S-3NT(denying any Ace outside but guaranteeing clubK or singleton)-6D.( club king /singleton is known already).

By the by, an invitational NT type hand is shown via 2C eg 1NT-2C-2 ANY-2NT