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1C-1S-2S-3C Meaning?

#21 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-July-12, 17:11

View PostLiversidge, on 2019-July-12, 13:07, said:

Yes. We play the Jacoby 2NT


Jacoby 2N is 1-2N not 1-1-2-2N, what does that actually mean for you ?
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#22 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2019-July-13, 00:55

Crowhurst in his book Precision Acol analysed ABBA sequences and concluded that they should be forcing if both suits are of the same rank, but non forcing if major/minor. I cant recall his reasoning however. Having said that, with my regular partners we play them all as forcing. It certainly makes life easier.

An earlier respondent commented that why would you want to play in a minor if you have already found a major fit, or words to that effect. The implication was that it was the questioners fault that they got a bad result. However that logic only reinforces the idea that the bid should be forcing, as it must therefore be a slam try, or at least a game try. Certainly not to play.
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#23 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-July-13, 01:01

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-July-12, 05:08, said:

Logic correct, conclusion incorrect, what if you want to invite but have something like Qxx, isn't 3 more useful than 3.


I didn't give any bidding sequences. How can my conclusion be incorrect??? With a hand worth game and a known 4-4 fit, bid game in spades. Are you disagreeing with that?

I said nothing about invitational or forcing followups. Were you replying to my post by mistake?
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#24 User is offline   dB451 

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Posted 2019-July-13, 01:33

I convince my partners to play Kokish Three-Way Game Tries, where after bidding and raising a major, by whatever route (initial minor, interference, whatever), (the first way, of the three ways for doing game tries) 3M says the partnership may have the points for game, but the initial M bidder has poor trumps, so the M raiser is requested to bid game with good trumps (say, more than 1 honor), or pass, if also having poor trumps. The second way is: if in Spades, the first M bidder's follow-up bid at the three level shows shortness in that suit; if the second M bidder thinks that's enough for game, they bid it, otherwise, bail at 3M; or, the second major bidder could make an alternate bid (such as 3D after 3C, which showed Club shortness - here 3D says: your Club shortness doesn't excite me, partner, but I have some stuff in Diamonds - does that excite you? If so, bid 4M, otherwise bail at 3M). But, if in Hearts, 3C/3D shows C/D shortness, but 2N shows Spade shortness; the same sorts of follow-ups apply as for a Spade sequence. Finally, the third way is: after 2M, the next suit up asks: "Is there a suit in which you would accept a Help-Suit Game Try partner?", where the usual considerations for positive Help Suit responses would apply, i.e., honors in the suit (with Q-third being borderline) or shortness (with a doubleton being borderline). So, if the second M bidder has a suit in which they have help, they bid it, and if the first M bidder thinks that's effective help, they bid the game, otherwise bail at 3M; if the responder to the ask thinks they have either honors or shortness in all other suits, they simply bid the game, but if they have help in more than one suit, judgement may be required to decide in which suit to show their help. Note that this avoids the concern of good players regarding normal Help Suit Game Tries - namely, that it reveals a weakness in the asker's hand, thereby suggesting an effective opening lead for the opponents. One additional wrinkle is that for Spades, the asking bid is 2N, so partner's responses of 3C/D/H show help in whichever of those suits they bid, but in Hearts, the asking bid is 2S (remember, after 1H - 2H, 2N shows Spade shortness), so partner's responses of 2N/3C/3D show Spade, Club, or Diamond help, respectively. Finally, Kokish Three-Way Game Tries work well as a sequeway after a Drury bid (preferably Reverse Two-Way Drury), where after Pass - 1M - 2C/D (Drury), if the major opener bids anything else BUT 2M, it's a Kokish bid! Very effective! Sorry, I know this presentation is too tightly packed, but oh well. So, for the original question, for me, 1C - 1S - 2S - 3C shows Club shortness on the part of the first Spade bidder, and requests partner to bid game if that improves their hand, but bail in 3M, if not.
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#25 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-July-13, 01:41

View Postjohnu, on 2019-July-13, 01:01, said:

I didn't give any bidding sequences. How can my conclusion be incorrect??? With a hand worth game and a known 4-4 fit, bid game in spades. Are you disagreeing with that?

I said nothing about invitational or forcing followups. Were you replying to my post by mistake?


No you were talking about 4 and 5 contracts, ruling out 3 which I think is where this sequence should end some of the time
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#26 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-July-13, 02:27

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-July-13, 01:41, said:

No you were talking about 4 and 5 contracts, ruling out 3 which I think is where this sequence should end some of the time


??? Responder has 4 spades and 13 HCP. Opener has 4 card support. In what world are you going to end up in 3 :rolleyes: I suggested that OP just bid 4 and forget trying to get to 5 as it is a bad idea.

I did not mention bidding 3 or possible meanings to various sequences because you shouldn't be bidding 3 with responder's hand.
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#27 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-July-13, 02:51

View Postjohnu, on 2019-July-13, 02:27, said:

??? Responder has 4 spades and 13 HCP. Opener has 4 card support. In what world are you going to end up in 3 :rolleyes: I suggested that OP just bid 4 and forget trying to get to 5 as it is a bad idea.

I did not mention bidding 3 or possible meanings to various sequences because you shouldn't be bidding 3 with responder's hand.


That's the disconnect, I thought you were talking about the sequence in general, not about this particular responding hand
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#28 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-July-13, 04:15

View PostGrahamJson, on 2019-July-13, 00:55, said:

Crowhurst in his book Precision Acol analysed ABBA sequences and concluded that they should be forcing if both suits are of the same rank, but non forcing if major/minor. I cant recall his reasoning however. Having said that, with my regular partners we play them all as forcing. It certainly makes life easier.


My copy of Crowhurst has not stood the test of time very well - both in the literal sense that the binding is rubbish and the bloody thing is falling apart, but also in the sense that I often find myself disagreeing with much that he says.

But in an Acol context, I think his recommendations on ABBA hands make some sense. There are two sequence that he recommends as non-forcing: 1m-1M-2M-3m and 1M-2m-3m-3M. Stephen made a good case why it might be useful for the first of these to be a non-forcing invitation.

The sequence 1M-2m-3m-3M is interesting in Acol (but easy in 2over1 GF!). Say you respond 2D with KQ6 75 AJ953 872: what do you do when opener raises to three on some minimum (AJ732 Q8 Q764 K3)? Opener's rebid now promises five spades and four diamonds and you know that there is an 8-card spade fit. The four-level is too high and it would be nice to bid a non-forcing 3S. This is Crowhurst's case for a non-forcing bid.

BUT, I feel that Crowhurst has been pretty selective in choosing hands. Most Acol 2-over-1 hands with a double fit for partner will offer some play for game and it arguably is trying to land on a pinhead to play 3M as non forcing. So there is a pretty strong case for the sequence to be forcing. There is a final twist: if 1M-2m-3m-3M is forcing, how does it differ from 1M-2m-3m-4M? Answers on a postcard please ...
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#29 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-July-13, 13:34

View PostTramticket, on 2019-July-13, 04:15, said:

There is a final twist: if 1M-2m-3m-3M is forcing, how does it differ from 1M-2m-3m-4M? Answers on a postcard please ...

It shows some degree of slam interest and invites control-bids?
Postcard from 2/1 :)

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#30 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2019-July-14, 11:50

I don't play Acol so this response might not help, but for anyone interested I note that Bridge World runs a monthly bidding contest. Problem D for this months contest, at


https://www.bridgewo...rsmainpage.html

has an auction 1C-1H-2H and asks what should be bid nest. It notes that in Bridge World Standard 2NT over 2H would be non-forcing,but 3C over 2H would be forcing.

No reason an Acol player should be bound by this, it's just an observation.
Ken
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#31 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2019-July-14, 12:50

What hand type are we catering to when playing the 3c bid as non forcing? I picture some hand like KQJT x xx 975432 where we are seriously worried about
not only being stuck in a moysian but every ruff we make at 2s can all too easily be promoting another trump trick for the opps. This is a valid concern BUT I feel the target is too tiny. Since there are an enormous number of hands that might benefit from a 3c showing extra values I feel the 3c bid should be at least forcing to 3S.

Once you agree that 3c has to be forcing the weaker hand can be shown with a jump to 4c over 2s. This will make balancing a bit tougher for the opps and it seems well worth it to spend the extra level showing a weak hand rather then wasting the entire 3 level when one has a strong hand. Partner will be well placed to decide strain/level over 4c and deciding to x or not to x if the opps enter the bidding.
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#32 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-July-14, 14:59

View Postgszes, on 2019-July-14, 12:50, said:

What hand type are we catering to when playing the 3c bid as non forcing? I picture some hand like KQJT x xx 975432 where we are seriously worried about
not only being stuck in a moysian but every ruff we make at 2s can all too easily be promoting another trump trick for the opps. This is a valid concern BUT I feel the target is too tiny. Since there are an enormous number of hands that might benefit from a 3c showing extra values I feel the 3c bid should be at least forcing to 3S.

Once you agree that 3c has to be forcing the weaker hand can be shown with a jump to 4c over 2s. This will make balancing a bit tougher for the opps and it seems well worth it to spend the extra level showing a weak hand rather then wasting the entire 3 level when one has a strong hand. Partner will be well placed to decide strain/level over 4c and deciding to x or not to x if the opps enter the bidding.


System matters of course. In the context of our Acol system, opener will be very likely to hold 5+ clubs for this sequence (although 4414 is possible). In this context, even responder holding a four-card club suit might play better than the Moysian. If you are going to play 3C as invitational, it seems reasonable to allow a pass if the invitation is declined.
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#33 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2019-July-14, 17:20

View Postkenberg, on 2019-July-14, 11:50, said:

I don't play Acol so this response might not help, but for anyone interested I note that Bridge World runs a monthly bidding contest. Problem D for this months contest, at


https://www.bridgewo...rsmainpage.html

has an auction 1C-1H-2H and asks what should be bid nest. It notes that in Bridge World Standard 2NT over 2H would be non-forcing,but 3C over 2H would be forcing.

No reason an Acol player should be bound by this, it's just an observation.

I don't think it should matter much whether you play Acol or SA. Either way, responder has shown (5)6+ points and 4+ spades, while opener has a minimum with typically 4 spades, but maybe 3+ depending on style.

In modern British Acol (weak NT), opener can't have a minimum balanced hand, which means that it is more obvious that opener shouldn't pass a 2NT bid by responder. But as for 3, it should depend on how often you raise a 3-card support.

But I think there is a tendency to play "when in doubt assume forcing" in North America, and "when in doubt assume non-Forcing" on the British Islands.
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#34 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-July-14, 17:44

As Stephen pointed out, the answer depends in large part upon whether you like or dislike opener's three-card raises of responder's major. If you frequently raise on 3 (which I hate, but which is relatively common here on the West coast, especially among Mike Lawrence disciples), then you need a method to show a minimum with 3 pieces and 4+ support for opener's minor. In the given auction, 3C fits the bill.

If, on the other hand, you follow the modern trend and don't raise on 3 unless there is absolutely no reasonable alternative, then you don't need a bid to cater to this specific situation (or you can use 2NT to suggest a possible 3-card raise game try).

Cheers,
Mike
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#35 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-July-14, 22:23

View Postmiamijd, on 2019-July-14, 17:44, said:

As Stephen pointed out, the answer depends in large part upon whether you like or dislike opener's three-card raises of responder's major. If you frequently raise on 3 (which I hate, but which is relatively common here on the West coast, especially among Mike Lawrence disciples), then you need a method to show a minimum with 3 pieces and 4+ support for opener's minor. In the given auction, 3C fits the bill.




A lot of players use 2S in this auction as an asking bid, asking for 3 or 4 card support, and minimum or maximum. 4 steps in possible responses.




After a spade response, 2NT is used as the asking bid.
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#36 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2019-July-15, 14:42

if 2s guarantees 4s 3C should be a natural slam try. if you have an 8 card major fit you shouldn't be interested in playing 5 clubs: it's 1 trick more required.

however there are good reasons why many people that 2S doesn't guarantee 4. in that case, 3C can sensibly be a natural non-forcing game try.
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#37 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-July-15, 16:23

View PostStephen Tu, on 2019-July-12, 12:54, said:

I disagree, if 2M can be 3. Playing 5cd majors, we are trained to respond 1M on terrible suits. After all we kind of have to bid 1s on 5432 if partner isn't going to open 1S on AKJx. Then partner is trained to raise on something like Kxx x AKJx Jxxxx, because it simplifies auctions and also playing 2c with this suit opposite a small stiff isn't really attractive, and 2M often scores better even if 2c is playable.
But now suppose responder has a hand worth a game try, with 4xx5 or 4xx4 distribution, but opener is min and doesn't accept. Now it's no longer a choice between playing 3m and 2M. It's between 3m and 3M. Do you really want to play 3M with xxxx opposite Hxx, or would you rather play your 9 or 10 cd minor fit, even at MP?
I personally would want to be able to play 3m.I know it's not mainstream, but in my serious partnerships I use 3m as NF inv, and cheapest new suit as a simplified GF spiral-ish inquiry.

View Postwank, on 2019-July-15, 14:42, said:

if 2s guarantees 4s 3C should be a natural slam try. if you have an 8 card major fit you shouldn't be interested in playing 5 clubs: it's 1 trick more required.however there are good reasons why many people that 2S doesn't guarantee 4. in that case, 3C can sensibly be a natural non-forcing game try.

More expert views. Thank you.
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#38 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2019-July-17, 11:09

View PostTramticket, on 2019-July-14, 14:59, said:

System matters of course. In the context of our Acol system, opener will be very likely to hold 5+ clubs for this sequence (although 4414 is possible). In this context, even responder holding a four-card club suit might play better than the Moysian. If you are going to play 3C as invitational, it seems reasonable to allow a pass if the invitation is declined.

my apologies if my response was unclear. The reason for forcing to 3s is because responder has at least 5 of them along with the club length (IF they are minimum). This is NOT because responder wishes to sign off in 3c opposite a minimum but to allow opener to better judge how their hand looks, somewhat similar to a HSGT. A simple 1c 1s 2s 3s might suffice with say Kxxx Kxx xx KQxx but 3c is a vastly superior descriptor with a holding like Kxxxx xx x Kxxxx. So they 3c bid can be used both to show this type of minimum AND anything else stronger. Again I feel it is worth the extra level of bidding if opener is minimum and prefers to play the minor vs the major (cases especially where they raised with 3 card support to begin with. This allows opener to bid 3s with a min and 4 card support (or in the instance opener is 3433 and no game aspirations) and 4c if the original raise was with 3 cards since there is a large % chance the minor will play better than the major.
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