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1C-1S-2S-3C Meaning?

#1 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2019-July-11, 23:35

1-1; 2-3-P


I (responding) had 13 HCP, 5 good clubs and 4 good spades.
After partner's pass I realised that bidding a suit previously mentioned is non-forcing, and the maxim that 'when you have found a fit in a major, don't look for any other strain'. But here we had a 10 card fit in clubs vs a likely 8 card fit in spades and I wanted to give partner a choice of game contracts. I thought my club rebid rather than settling for a spade contract might suggest that I had 5 clubs and was offering a choice of game contracts. I suspect my thinking was muddled, but is there any situation where this sequence might be used?
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#2 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-July-11, 23:40

Do you raise spades on 3 ? and if so how often ?

I can see several meanings for 3 dependent on the previous question.

If you don't raise on 3 much, the question is whether it's a game try or GF.

If you do a lot, it's not unreasonable for it to be to-play 4-4 in the blacks, or inv or GF.
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#3 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2019-July-11, 23:56

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-July-11, 23:40, said:

Do you raise spades on 3 ? and if so how often ?

I can see several meanings for 3 dependent on the previous question.

If you don't raise on 3 much, the question is whether it's a game try or GF.

If you do a lot, it's not unreasonable for it to be to-play 4-4 in the blacks, or inv or GF.


We only raise a major with 3 card support when responding to partner's opening bid, but not in this situation.
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#4 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2019-July-12, 01:04

Hi,

If you found a major suit fit, you play the major.
Dont make it more complicate than it is.

If you play game tries in the seq.

1S - 2S
3C - ...

than the 3C in the original seq. is also a game try.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#5 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-July-12, 02:50

View PostLiversidge, on 2019-July-11, 23:35, said:

1-1; 2-3-P


I (responding) had 13 HCP, 5 good clubs and 4 good spades.
After partner's pass I realised that bidding a suit previously mentioned is non-forcing, and the maxim that 'when you have found a fit in a major, don't look for any other strain'. But here we had a 10 card fit in clubs vs a likely 8 card fit in spades and I wanted to give partner a choice of game contracts. I thought my club rebid rather than settling for a spade contract might suggest that I had 5 clubs and was offering a choice of game contracts. I suspect my thinking was muddled, but is there any situation where this sequence might be used?


Assuming opener promised 4 spades by raising, why would you try for a 5 contract? You are contracting for 11 tricks instead of 10 tricks in spades in a 4-4 fit and that extra trick can be very important. Sure you can make up examples where 5 makes and 4 goes down. There is no way to find out if that's the case. So don't bother and just bid game in spades.
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#6 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-July-12, 04:00

There are many similar (but subtly different) sequences that you should consider:

1-1-2-3
1-2-3-3
1-1-2-3
1-2-3-3
1m-1M-2M-3m
1M-2m-3m-3M

The optimum answers to each will depend upon your methods (and if you play 2 over 1 GF some will be solved).

But if you are in a newer partnership and have not yet considered these in detail, a simple rule is to treat all of these as a one-round force.
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#7 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2019-July-12, 04:07

If this is Acol bidding, I would take 3 as unconditionally forcing. Opener clarifies his/her hand further.
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#8 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-July-12, 05:08

View Postjohnu, on 2019-July-12, 02:50, said:

Assuming opener promised 4 spades by raising, why would you try for a 5 contract? You are contracting for 11 tricks instead of 10 tricks in spades in a 4-4 fit and that extra trick can be very important. Sure you can make up examples where 5 makes and 4 goes down. There is no way to find out if that's the case. So don't bother and just bid game in spades.

Logic correct, conclusion incorrect, what if you want to invite but have something like Qxx, isn't 3 more useful than 3.

Also to the OP, what do you do with a 3415 minimum opening bid after 1-1? the world bids 2.

The other thing that matters here is system, how many clubs are you showing with 2?
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#9 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-July-12, 05:58

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2019-July-12, 01:04, said:

If you found a major suit fit, you play the major.
Dont make it more complicate than it is.

If you play game tries in the seq.

1S - 2S
3C - ...

than the 3C in the original seq. is also a game try.


I suggest that 1 1; 2 3 should also then be a game try, although not all agree.
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#10 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2019-July-12, 10:26

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-July-12, 05:08, said:

Logic correct, conclusion incorrect, what if you want to invite but have something like Qxx, isn't 3 more useful than 3.

Also to the OP, what do you do with a 3415 minimum opening bid after 1-1? the world bids 2.

The other thing that matters here is system, how many clubs are you showing with 2?

In our sustem, 2by opener promises four spades and 5 clubs.
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#11 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2019-July-12, 10:28

View PostFelicityR, on 2019-July-12, 04:07, said:

If this is Acol bidding, I would take 3 as unconditionally forcing. Opener clarifies his/her hand further.

We play Acol
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#12 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-July-12, 10:29

We play all ABBAs as forcing. It is simpler that way.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#13 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-July-12, 11:31

View PostLiversidge, on 2019-July-12, 10:26, said:

In our sustem, 2by opener promises four spades and 5 clubs.


In that case 3 should certainly be F1, game try showing something in clubs, although you can obviously use it with better hands too.


Also since you have a known 4-4 spade fit, have you discussed what 2N means ?
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#14 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-July-12, 11:57

View PostVampyr, on 2019-July-12, 10:29, said:

We play all ABBAs as forcing. It is simpler that way.

Simple and consistent, IMO.
For example, it does not make much sense to play 1m-1M-2M-3m as N/F, in a pairs context.
Even if you're worried about a possible 4-3 M fit, the 2M-contract usually scores more than the 3m contract -- and requires 1 fewer trick.


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#15 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2019-July-12, 12:54

Quote

For example, it does not make much sense to play 1m-1M-2M-3m as N/F, in a pairs context. Even if you're worried about a possible 4-3 M fit, the 2M-contract usually scores more than the 3m contract -- and requires 1 fewer trick.

I disagree, if 2M can be 3. Playing 5cd majors, we are trained to respond 1M on terrible suits. After all we kind of have to bid 1s on 5432 if partner isn't going to open 1S on AKJx. Then partner is trained to raise on something like Kxx x AKJx Jxxxx, because it simplifies auctions and also playing 2c with this suit opposite a small stiff isn't really attractive, and 2M often scores better even if 2c is playable.

But now suppose responder has a hand worth a game try, with 4xx5 or 4xx4 distribution, but opener is min and doesn't accept. Now it's no longer a choice between playing 3m and 2M. It's between 3m and 3M. Do you really want to play 3M with xxxx opposite Hxx, or would you rather play your 9 or 10 cd minor fit, even at MP? I personally would want to be able to play 3m.


I know it's not mainstream, but in my serious partnerships I use 3m as NF inv, and cheapest new suit as a simplified GF spiral-ish inquiry.
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#16 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2019-July-12, 13:07

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-July-12, 11:31, said:

In that case 3 should certainly be F1, game try showing something in clubs, although you can obviously use it with better hands too.


Also since you have a known 4-4 spade fit, have you discussed what 2N means ?

Yes. We play the Jacoby 2NT
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#17 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-July-12, 13:43

 nige1, on 2019-July-12, 11:57, said:

For example, it does not make much sense to play 1m-1M-2M-3m as N/F, in a pairs context.


I agree with Stephen. A Moysian might be playable at the two-level, but less so at the three level. Even though I try to raise to 2M as little as possible on a three-card suit, I also play 3m in this auction as a non-forcing invitation.

I saw this recommended by Brian Senior in a book 20+ years ago.

But since this is the N/B forum it is simplest to treat all as forcing for one round.
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#18 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-July-12, 14:09

View PostVampyr, on 2019-July-12, 10:29, said:

We play all ABBAs as forcing. It is simpler that way.


But in a 2/1 context I think these sequences are too important to simplify much.
We play:
1-1-2-3 = F1, game try with spades as trumps (no hearts fit promised)
1-2-3-3 = FG, fixes spades as trumps, invites control-bids (hearts fit at least 5-3)
1-1-2-3 = NF, sign-off with clubs as trumps (diamonds fit 4-4)
1-2-3-3 = FG, fixes diamonds as trumps, invites control-bids (no clubs fit promised)
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#19 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-July-12, 16:06

View Postpescetom, on 2019-July-12, 14:09, said:

But in a 2/1 context I think these sequences are too important to simplify much.

Obviously it is different if some of these are GF by tthe time responder has bid.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#20 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-July-12, 16:12

View PostLiversidge, on 2019-July-12, 13:07, said:

Yes. We play the Jacoby 2NT


I don’t think the question referred to responder’s first bid. It is about after 1-1-2.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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