[kenberg]

Here is your hand:

AKQJxx
Qx
Ax
AKx


The bidding:

2C 2D
3S 4NT


Fine so far, but this is an individual. The default convention card is SAYC.

Your options seem to be:

5S showing 3 aces, as it does with the default card.

5D hoping partner will assume that this shows 1 or 4 keys rather than 1 ace or (playing 1430) 3 keys.

5C hoping partner will assume that this shows 1 or 4 keys rather than 4 aces or (playing std rkc) 3 keys.

This hand was held by my RHO, and he solved his problem by bidding 5D and announcing to the table: Your profile partner. He nicely included an alert to us that it showed 1 or 4 keys.


I was brought up not to do this, but it's a big wide world out there. What prompts this letter is that the director (I called) reminded the opps that they should not converse during the auction, but no further action was taken.

The opponents pointed out that one ace would not have been a reasonable interpretation of the auction. True enough. But:

A. There are two common versions of key card, and 5D=3 keys is a reasonable interpretation if it is assumed this is a key card response.

B. If my RHO did not have his "bid and tell" option available he might well have chosen to content himself with the SAYC default response of 5S. 5NT would then show that a king is missing which presumably could be the spade king (OK, 3S should be solid. I know. His partner may or may not know.)

C. Most important to me, it's bad for the spirit of the game. In fact, RHO defended himself by saying he had seen this done many times. Really not all that often in my experience, but if directors don't object, it could become more frequent I imagine.


The hand was played 4 times, twice (including this one) it was played in the cold grand.

I don't actually expect Spiderman to right this wrong for me, I guess I am just blowing off steam.


Thanks,
Ken

[Elianna]

I agree that this is unethical behavior of theirs, and not something I would do. However, I am of the philosophy that I don't wish to win just because this is the first time opps have played together, and don't know what version of 4NT they're playing.

So in conclusion, yes, you're right, they shouldn't be doing this. But is it worth calling a director to me? No.

I know that I have a more laissez faire attitude towards this than many people do. I am SURE that you will get people agreeing with you, and I don't necessarily think that's wrong, either.

[PriorKnowledge]

If this is commonly accepted behavior at individuals, even by the director, I will never play in them.

[EricK]

PriorKnowledge, on May 4 2005, 08:32 PM, said:

If this is commonly accepted behavior at individuals, even by the director, I will never play in them.

If bidding Blackwood in this situation is commonly accepted behaviour in an individual then I am definitiely not playing in them.

Eric

[hotShot]

How long does it take to agree on a system including the type of BW you will play?
Do you really what to wait a few minutes each rounds so that opps can agree in detail about their system?
In an individual tourney you don't have the time and most importently you have already seen your cards. So if my cards are so good that my first question to my new partner what kind of BW we play, that creates much more UI than just anouncing what kind of BW you decided to use.

This is not a championship and you are taking this far to serious.

[kenberg]

EricK, on May 4 2005, 04:41 PM, said:

PriorKnowledge, on May 4 2005, 08:32 PM, said:

If this is commonly accepted behavior at individuals, even by the director, I will never play in them.

If bidding Blackwood in this situation is commonly accepted behaviour in an individual then I am definitiely not playing in them.

Eric

You guys both have a point but I am not trying to warn anyone off of Individuals. Most people who play in them accept the fact that the bidding is primitive, and most people willingly put their favorite gadgets on the shelf to play a few hands without a lot of negotiation over when Bergen is on or off, whether 5NT after an RKC bid asks for specific kings or the number of kings, etc. I enjoy this myself, but I know many don't.

Primitive bidding in a laid back atmosphere doesn't mean anything goes, however. I have played "adjective bridge" where bids such as "2 Flannery Diamonds" or "4 splinter Clubs" are allowed. Around 2 in the morning after enough wine it's a fine game. I understand the Individuals to not allow such fun, and I expect the director to be on the same wavelength even if, from time to time, one of the players isn't. This is pretty rare, by the way.

k

[inquiry]

UI, sanctions, to be applied. "your profile partner" is not allowed. Neithe ris 14, 03, etc... you are not to talk to your partner in tournments about your hand.

Ben

[luke warm]

agree totally with ben... and disagree totally with hotshot... true, it isn't a championship, however it is a bridge tourney... the pair in question were laboring under the same hardship as all other pairs, yet they seem to have benefitted from something that shouldn't be allowed...

[pigpenz]

I Know I copy and paste when I play in any individual

HI Sayc rkcb 1430 ok

even though I do this it never seems to matter most of the time in indi's It's luck of the draw...you just have to play for the fun of it

I think most people use reverse ratings World Class =Rookie, etc.

[kenberg]

pigpenz, on May 4 2005, 08:19 PM, said:

I Know I copy and paste when I play in any individual

HI Sayc rkcb 1430 ok

even though I do this it never seems to matter most of the time in indi's It's luck of the draw...you just have to play for the fun of it

Exactly. My approach is to put on my profile: Default SAYC unless I hear differently. If pard lists several things he wants I say sure, unless it's something like the Martian Club with Klingon carding. Get it done, bid the hands and play them. The discussion must be quick, and hopefully there will not be too many traps. If there is a disaster, I live with it.

Just before the hand I quoted, the bidding went 1H on my right, 2H by me alerted to my opponents but not my partner as "Michaels, I intend" (it is Michaels in default SAYC) and this was followed by 3 passes. Oh well. There will be another hand soon.

The other day, I opened a NT and pard bid 2S. Hmm. In BBO Basic this is a relay to clubs but I didn't think it is in SAYC. Maybe it is. Anyway I passed. Pard brought in 2S in her 3-2 fit for an average board (mps) since 3C makes exactly. I congratulated her on her good play with a tough hand (she made all 5 trump inividually if I recall correctly), explained that I was suspicious of the 2S bid but decided to go with the pass, and we went on to the next hand.

You have to have a sense of humor to play in the Individuals. I like to think I do. But:
I don't intend to start announcing my Michaels bid to the table. The game could be played that way, but it is my understanding that it isn't.

On my first message I said I was just blowing off a bit of steam so I think I will now stop beating this poor dead horse.

Thanks for all your comments. I will read follow-ups but probably not comment further myself.

best wishes all,
Ken

[sceptic]

Hi Ken,

I am guilty of doing this myself on more than one occasion, never really considered myself a cheat or unethical, just considered it part of argreeing what me and a pard I have never seen before play as it is probably 50%+ of the time you sit at a table and start playing without even discussing the basics

[sceptic]

especially when pard has 0314 and you have 1403 on your profiles

[EricK]

sceptic, on May 5 2005, 06:13 AM, said:

especially when pard has 0314 and you have 1403 on your profiles

It is one thing doing this when simply playing bridge in the main bridge club, it is quite another doing it in a tournament.

But in either case, if you know that you haven't agreed on something then don't bid it and agree after the hand, or bid it anyway and apologize if partner guesses wrong.

Eric

[badderzboy]

I think this is much ado about nothing.

I would like to win by fair play and not hope our opps get in a mess 'cos it's an individual or a pick-up pair in the MBC. (I've even private msg'd the alert b4 to the partner in the interests of fair-play when I have played these rarely).

I suppose the polite thing is to ask the opps first if I may enquire which blackwood my partner uses.

In most individuals there is a standard bidding system so u don't need to worry about which systems are in use so the easiest answer is to state BBO Basic or Adv or whatever my card (and load the CC in).

To clarify the type of blackwood is not that far out of order here surely?

Steve

[Fluffy]

I don't care if it is allowed or not, I just want to play bridge, not guess the system.

It would be more polite to ask opponents if you could ask wich blackwood to your partner before, but appart from that it seems the proper action to me.

[PriorKnowledge]

I think having flexible, context-sensitive conventions are very useful. Why only BW? If Partner has a useful convention on his/her profile, I have the option to play the SAYC or partner's profile interpretation, whichever is most useful. How about if partner has Weak NT on his/her profile. Now I can open 1N with 12-17.

[beatrix45]

Playing 'guess the system' is not bridge. If it takes an occasional bogus alert to make things work, so be it. Playing in a major event would be a different story.

[PriorKnowledge]

beatrix45, on May 5 2005, 11:19 AM, said:

Playing 'guess the system' is not bridge. If it takes an occasional bogus alert to make things work, so be it. Playing in a major event would be a different story.

I guess the bidding has never gone 1S X 3C and you wonder if that is Bergen.

Determining when and what bids mean is bridge. Telling partner what your bid means and what convention you are using when you bid is not bridge.

Quote

Playing in a major event would be a different story.

Your ethics are based on the level of the event? Like stealing an ice cream cone versus robbing a bank?

[pigpenz]

yes usually in individuals sayc applies.
i noitce on the card i belieive its just plain old vanilla blackwood.

[Elianna]

PriorKnowledge, on May 5 2005, 10:41 AM, said:

Quote

Playing in a major event would be a different story.

Your ethics are based on the level of the event? Like stealing an ice cream cone versus robbing a bank?

To me, the relevant question is:
Are you as likely to get upset about someone taking $.05 from you, as taking $50,000?

I'm not saying I would do this in an indy tournament on bbo (before people start yelling), I'm just saying that I'd not be upset if opps did it. I wouldn't be as sanguine about this if it happened at a nationals.