[mike777]

Just finished playing with pick up partner in Main Room against 2 European players.

They alerted and opened weak 2 clubs. When I asked them to put up a cc, it was the 4th or 5th hand and they were not playing standard and I had no idea of their carding or overall system, at this point they said no, we alerted. I guess they had their bid but since they had at least ace and K and other HcP outside of the bid suit I would have liked a bit more info. Anyway we got to 4s and made it, perhaps I am just an old grouch on this one.

Don't mean to sound like an old man here but if you are playing something non standard with your regular partner is it too much to ask for a cc? Perhaps this is standard 2c bid in Europe, if so never mind.

[Walddk]

If it is what I think it is, it is not exactly standard. 2♣ in some parts of Europe (Netherlands and Scandinavia for instance) is ambiguous.

1. Weak 2 in diamonds.
2. Normal strong 2♣ as in a natural system (Standard, 2/1, Acol).

It's obviously 1. in more than 90% of the cases, so just treat it as such. A defence could be:

2♦: Take out of a weak 2 in diamonds.
Dbl: General take out, usually 12-14 balanced, or any 17+ hand (will bid again).
2MA: Natural, non forcing.
2NT: Natural, 15-18.
3♣: Natural, non forcing.

You need no more than that.

Roland

[mike777]

Alert just said "Weak"....one word, that is all so I guess is was like a weak 2 bid in clubs......but with your ace and king outside .

[Walddk]

I have never seen 2♣ used as a weak 2 in clubs before, and I have been around for a while.

Roland

[hrothgar]

Walddk, on May 10 2005, 11:36 PM, said:

I have never seen 2♣ used as a weak 2 in clubs before, and I have been around for a while.

Roland

2♣ is is a standard part of EHAA

[Walddk]

hrothgar, on May 10 2005, 03:44 PM, said:

Walddk, on May 10 2005, 11:36 PM, said:

I have never seen 2♣ used as a weak 2 in clubs before, and I have been around for a while.

Roland

2♣ is is a standard part of EHAA

Possibly; if only I knew what that stands for. But Mike says that he played against 2 Europeans, and I would be quite surprised if they play EHAA, whatever it is.

Roland

[mike777]

Ya, learned EHAA before I learned standard...many would say I still have not learned standard. In fact thought EHAA was standard.

[mike777]

Jlall, on May 10 2005, 04:07 PM, said:

Why are they required to put up a CC? If you don't like it you can leave. This stuff seems really petty. There are hundreds of tables, why must you play at theirs if theres an issue?

Roland: EHAA= Every Hand an Adventure. Also, I actually know a pair who plays a weak 2C at the national level lol.

ok, I left, did not want to come across petty.

[MickyB]

hrothgar, on May 10 2005, 09:44 PM, said:

Walddk, on May 10 2005, 11:36 PM, said:

I have never seen 2♣ used as a weak 2 in clubs before, and I have been around for a while.

Roland

2♣ is is a standard part of EHAA

Wasn't it in Roth-Stone as well? Or maybe you were playing against Fantoni-Nunes

[Chamaco]

mike777, on May 10 2005, 07:59 PM, said:

Don't mean to sound like an old man here but if you are playing something non standard with your regular partner is it too much to ask for a cc?

Many players:

a. have trouble with english, so their alerts use the same lexycon as Tarzan "Me Tarzan you Jane"

b. have similarly clumsy PC skills, so they really have no idea of how to fill the BBO cc card (some do not evcen know of the existence of such an option).


I ignore whether these opps were trying to be "smart" or whether they were clumsy, but in most cases I tend to lean towards trusting them.

At least I do not get angry, and the doctor told me that if I never get angry I will live longer

[whereagles]

Nobody uses CCs in BBO, but perhaps they should.

Here's an idea: an automated response like "E/W have set a new convention card", so that people remember to check opps CCs and that they can upload one of their own.

[kenberg]

Mike,

I wasn't at the table but I think I know exactly what you are saying. There are players (not all European by any means) who want to make an effort to let opponents know the general style they are playing, and there are players who don't. I welcome the opportunity to play against people with different approaches, and an online game where the results are washed away is a fine venue for this. But I enjoy this only if the system is not too bizarre and the opponents are generous in their approach to my ignorance of their system.

No one can really put a stop to what you describe (or what I am reading in to what you say), but the following old story may ease the pain: A man is walking outside a prison carrying a sign protesting capital punishment. A passerby remarks "You can't change the world, son." "Not trying to. Trying to keep the world from changing me."

Ken

[Chamaco]

kenberg, on May 11 2005, 02:09 PM, said:

But I enjoy this only if the system is not too bizarre and the opponents are generous in their approach to my ignorance of their system.

I know some Italian persons who:

1. are in their 60s, and the best they can do in speaking english is write "weack" with the "c": they cannot absolutely explain the meaning of a bid in a language different than italian;

2. they know only some complicated Canapè style Roman Club.


3. some of them are regular partners, but they are simply unable to explain the meaning of a bid using more than 2 words, simply because they DO NOT KNOW more than 2-3 words in english.

What can you do whan you meet such players ?
My opinion is that one can legitimately complain if you meet a player that cannot explain his bids, BUT ONLY IF IT'S A TOURNEY.

In the Main Lobby, though, my guess is that one should not be bothered, simply because this behaviour is not necessarily a lack of respect or transparence.
Many players SIMPLY HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE BCOS THEY DO NOT KNOW WELL ENOUGH ENGLISH.
Simply, if one does not like it, the best is just changing table.

Things are much different if those people are native english speakers.

Just my 2 cents :-)

[Gerben42]

It sure wasn't me, I would have written 9 - 13, 5+♣. Fantunes style is getting more popular, dunno anyone who plays 2♣ weak two in ♣.

[whereagles]

Well, you know me now. 2C for me is 5-10 and 5-6 clubs

[kenberg]

Chamaco, on May 11 2005, 09:25 AM, said:

I know some Italian persons who:

1. are in their 60s, and the best they can do in speaking english is write "weack" with the "c": they cannot absolutely explain the meaning of a bid in a language different than italian;

2. they know only some complicated Canapè style Roman Club.


3. some of them are regular partners, but they are simply unable to explain the meaning of a bid using more than 2 words, simply because they DO NOT KNOW more than 2-3 words in english.

What can you do whan you meet such players ?
My opinion is that one can legitimately complain if you meet a player that cannot explain his bids, BUT ONLY IF IT'S A TOURNEY.

In the Main Lobby, though, my guess is that one should not be bothered, simply because this behaviour is not necessarily a lack of respect or transparence.
Many players SIMPLY HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE BCOS THEY DO NOT KNOW WELL ENOUGH ENGLISH.
Simply, if one does not like it, the best is just changing table.

Things are much different if those people are native english speakers.

Just my 2 cents :-)

I'm with you entirely on this. I have never been to Italy but my wife and I were recently in Paris and I greatly appreciate the tolerance shown with my efforts to cope. In my opinion my own country has a lot to learn about the proper way to treat visitors, and anticipate the needs of visitors, who have language problems. When language is the issue then perhaps the players can cope or perhaps they give it up as a lost cause, but there is no reason for hard feelings. Sometimes the issues are different, but it is always wise to assume the best until you learn otherwise.

Ciao
Ken

[Chamaco]

kenberg, on May 11 2005, 04:27 PM, said:

In my opinion my own country has a lot to learn about the proper way to treat visitors, and anticipate the needs of visitors,  who have  language problems.

Well,
I have lived in the US for about 4 years, and I can tell you that everybody was really friendly and ready to help me as a foreigner coming to California.

Actually, I might even dare to say that - at least where I lived - people seemed to be more used to be tolerant and accept other cultures than in many parts of Italy, for the very simple fact that so many people immigrate in California from every part of the world, and therefore it is becoming normal to accept and merge with other cultures. :-)

So perhaps, there are also quite a bunch of Italians that could learn tolerance and hospitality from some US folks :-)

Having said that, I fully agree with you when you say that many times, especially in bridge, we can act assuming th best from our fellow opponents at the table :-)

[luis]

Hehe
I'm also playing 2♣ 9-13 fantunes style.
I took me 5 minutes to explain the 2♣ opening to a well known internationalist the conversation was something like this: (EI=Expert Internationalist)

EI: What is 2♣?
Luis: 9-13 5+ clubs, not balanced in 1st and 2nd seats
EI: Weak?
Luis: If 13 is weak for you yes
EI: But does it show clubs?
Luis: Yes
EI: How can it show clubs?
Luis: It's natural
EI: No, 2♣ is not natural, it shows clubs!
Luis: If a club bid that shows club is not natural to you then I give up
EI: Is that new?
Luis: Well I guess clubs were clubs when the game was invented so... no
EI: And can you play this (It was a top-tier tournament)
Luis: You may ask the TD if we can play 2♣ showing clubs, maybe is too complicated for you. Do you think you need a defense? I may suggest double as a takeout with short clubs, 2♦ showing diamonds, 2♥ hearts and 2♠ spades.
EI: ....
Luis: Do you want me to write that down for you?

At this moment EI's pd asked to please stop the conversation because he was feeling stomach pain from laughing....

[kenberg]

luis, on May 11 2005, 11:56 AM, said:

Hehe
I'm also playing 2♣ 9-13 fantunes style.
I took me 5 minutes to explain the 2♣ opening to a well known internationalist the conversation was something like this: (EI=Expert Internationalist)

EI: What is 2♣?
Luis: 9-13 5+ clubs, not balanced in 1st and 2nd seats
EI: Weak?
Luis: If 13 is weak for you yes
EI: But does it show clubs?
Luis: Yes
EI: How can it show clubs?
Luis: It's natural
EI: No, 2♣ is not natural, it shows clubs!
Luis: If a club bid that shows club is not natural to you then I give up
EI: Is that new?
Luis: Well I guess clubs were clubs when the game was invented so... no
EI: And can you play this (It was a top-tier tournament)
Luis: You may ask the TD if we can play 2♣ showing clubs, maybe is too complicated for you. Do you think you need a defense? I may suggest double as a takeout with short clubs, 2♦ showing diamonds, 2♥ hearts and 2♠ spades.
EI: ....
Luis: Do you want me to write that down for you?

At this moment EI's pd asked to please stop the conversation because he was feeling stomach pain from laughing....

Over the years I have learned that against certain players I must be very very careful in how I phrase my questions so as not to invite the caustic ridiculing response. No doubt EI should not have asked if the bid was weak after hearing that it was 9-13. He should not have asked if the bid was new. He needed, or at least probably wished, to know a few of the extra features such as "If the club length is only five then must there be a four card major?" Some players will willingly provide this information, others will give you the least amount that they are legally required to give and attempt to silence any inquiry by sarcasm and ridicule. I agree that an expert internationalist should have been aware of this possibility and he should have been prepared to cope with it.

If you want to do this with an Expert Internationalist who presumably knows how to take care of himself, or herself, go ahead and have your fun. Against anyone else it is the sort of thing that gives bridge players a bad name.