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ISIS Shamima Begum Petition

#21 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-19, 11:38

View Postbarmar, on 2019-February-19, 10:39, said:

Representative democracy is about the people selecting smart legislators to do it for them.

Direct democracy results in fiascos like Brexit.

If "the people" made the laws, the US probably wouldn't have the Civil Rights Bill.


If the people made the laws, we probably wouldn't have abolished the death penalty (or would have brought it back)

Brexit is more complicated, it needn't have been a fiasco, two pro remain PMs, one who mishandled calling the referendum and one who botched the negociations made it one.
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#22 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-19, 13:14

It appears that the home secretary has just removed her citizenship, so she must have another or he's getting taken to court.
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#23 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-February-19, 17:57

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-February-17, 03:53, said:

Which would also be illegal as we don't hand people over to countries where torture and capital punishment are possible (and yes we hand people over to the US, but only after the death penalty is taken off the table)


I don’t think that is the case anymore.

In any case, it would be the Kurds who handed her over.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#24 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 04:42

A bit of news I heard this morning, it appears he can remove citizenship if she is eligible for another passport, she doesn't actually have to have it and there are discussions going on with Bangladesh (where she's never been, but I assume her family originates from).
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#25 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 04:54

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-February-20, 04:42, said:

A bit of news I heard this morning, it appears he can remove citizenship if she is eligible for another passport, she doesn't actually have to have it and there are discussions going on with Bangladesh (where she's never been, but I assume her family originates from).


Bad day to be Jewish if you are living in the UK...
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#26 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 06:03

View Posthrothgar, on 2019-February-20, 04:54, said:

Bad day to be Jewish if you are living in the UK...


Only if you join ISIS which I think is somewhat unlikely.
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#27 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 07:52

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-February-20, 06:03, said:

Only if you join ISIS which I think is somewhat unlikely.


No, only if you do something unpopular...

Me, I am really leery about allowing the government to start stripping people of rights because someone did something unpopular...
If I were Jewish, l'd be even more nervous...
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#28 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 07:59

View Posthrothgar, on 2019-February-20, 07:52, said:

No, only if you do something unpopular...

Me, I am really leery about allowing the government to start stripping people of rights because someone did something unpopular...
If I were Jewish, l'd be even more nervous...


I think it's actually if you give your support to an organization that fights against this country. The Jewish community is already nervous about the prospect of a Corbyn government. Stripping of rights has happened many times in the past for dual citizens. A load of Jamaican criminals were sent back there, some of whom hadn't been there since they were small children.
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#29 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 08:02

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-February-20, 07:59, said:

I think it's actually if you give your support to an organization that fights against this country.


Today

Quote

A load of Jamaican criminals were sent back there, some of whom hadn't been there since they were small children.


Or apparently just committing a crime.

I stand by my original statement, do something unpopular and you're *****ed...
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#30 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 08:41

View Posthrothgar, on 2019-February-20, 08:02, said:

Or apparently just committing a crime.

I stand by my original statement, do something unpopular and you're *****ed...


It's a long standing thing that people who commit crimes (I'm not sure if it's with a sentence of or who actually serve) more than a year and are citizens of another country may well get deported.
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#31 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2019-February-21, 11:34

I think the situation with her citizenship is now becoming really weird. Are we saying that just because her ethnicity is Bangladeshi, she can be compelled by the UK Govt. to go seek Bangladeshi citizenship?

How many generations does one have to have lived in the UK to become "fully British"?
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#32 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-21, 11:40

View Postshyams, on 2019-February-21, 11:34, said:

I think the situation with her citizenship is now becoming really weird. Are we saying that just because her ethnicity is Bangladeshi, she can be compelled by the UK Govt. to go seek Bangladeshi citizenship?

How many generations does one have to have lived in the UK to become "fully British"?


What Sajid Javid said was that her parents were both Bangladeshi citizens, then so inevitably is she. This is denied by the Bangladeshi government. Legal action is inevitable now.
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#33 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2019-February-22, 02:22

Let's evade responsibility for the criminal scum which our society produces and dump them in Bangladesh.
... most of the new ideas I get are pretty "boring", mostly focusing on constructive methods rather than destructive ones --- Kungsgeten
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#34 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-February-22, 10:49

This week’s Private Eye cover is hilarious.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#35 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2019-February-23, 18:16

View PostVampyr, on 2019-February-22, 10:49, said:

This week’s Private Eye cover is hilarious.

Can you post a link?
... most of the new ideas I get are pretty "boring", mostly focusing on constructive methods rather than destructive ones --- Kungsgeten
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#36 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-February-23, 19:34

View Posthelene_t, on 2019-February-23, 18:16, said:

Can you post a link?


link to current issue of Private Eye
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#37 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2019-February-24, 16:28

A few thoughts.

In any relationship everyone has obligations and expectations. If someone runs off to join ISIS it is no great surprise that her (in this case her, but her or his) countrymen don't want her back when that doesn't go well. There are legalities, I leave that to the lawyers. And there is the possibility of overlooking a mistake, especially by a young person. But describing what she did as "unpopular" seems like a massive understatement. Speaking out in favor of ISIS would be unpopular. Joining ISIS, and by joining I mean leaving your home country and residing with ISIS and participating in their aims, is something else entirely.

I believe that we in the U.S. have a couple of cases along the same lines, else I would just shut up. I think we start by applying the law as it is now written. Perhaps the law could/should be changed in one direction or the other, for future cases. Perhaps the law might be tempered with mercy in some way in the cases at hand. Perhaps. And perhaps not. Details could matter. But I do not think it is either surprising or unjust to apply the law vigorously to someone who has joined ISIS. Going easy would be very generous.
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#38 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-February-24, 17:25

I'm with Ken on this. I don't know how much weight to give to youth in these situation. If we start with the premise that we are in a virtually never-ending war with terrorists, then running off to join ISIS would be in the U.S. the very definition of treason. If that is the case, the reward for coming home is a lifetime in prison. That seems unduly harsh in one sense but deserved in another sense.

I'm glad I don't have to make these decisions as I am totally conflicted.
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#39 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-24, 17:29

View PostWinstonm, on 2019-February-24, 17:25, said:

I'm with Ken on this. I don't know how much weight to give to youth in these situation. If we start with the premise that we are in a virtually never-ending war with terrorists, then running off to join ISIS would be in the U.S. the very definition of treason. If that is the case, the reward for coming home is a lifetime in prison. That seems unduly harsh in one sense but deserved in another sense.

I'm glad I don't have to make these decisions as I am totally conflicted.


I think in the UK she would get a maximum of 10 years for the offence she has committed, won't get the max and will serve half of it if she behaves, maybe 3 years.
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#40 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2019-February-24, 19:12

View PostWinstonm, on 2019-February-24, 17:25, said:

If we start with the premise that we are in a virtually never-ending war with terrorists, then running off to join ISIS would be in the U.S. the very definition of treason.

Treason would be to join an enemy army. ISIS is not an army as they don't represent a recognized country. It's just a criminal gang. And not even an enemy of the UK, as they were supported by U.K.'s Turkish and Saudi allies.
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