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ISIS Shamima Begum Petition

#1 User is offline   euclidz 

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Posted 2019-February-16, 04:27

Click this link to sign the petition "Ban all ISIS members from returning to UK" Shamima Begum in particular


https://petition.par...etitions/231521
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#2 User is offline   StevenG 

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Posted 2019-February-16, 04:43

View Posteuclidz, on 2019-February-16, 04:27, said:

Click this link to sign the petition "Ban all ISIS members from returning to UK" Shamima Begum in particular


https://petition.par...etitions/231521

I most certainly won't.
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#3 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2019-February-16, 05:35

View PostStevenG, on 2019-February-16, 04:43, said:

I most certainly won't.

Me neither.
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-16, 05:46

It is completely illegal under international law to ban her return and strip her citizenship (you can't make somebody stateless and she has no other country). Also however much you dislike the fact, her baby is British in law and will have rights.

By all means lock her up when she gets here and try her incourt, but she has to be allowed to come back. We don't however have to bust a gut to help her return.
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#5 User is offline   euclidz 

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Posted 2019-February-16, 05:57

View PostStevenG, on 2019-February-16, 04:43, said:

I most certainly won't.


Thankfully lots of others do not agree . . .. Since I posted this thread the signatures have gone up by 10,000
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#6 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2019-February-16, 06:16

View Posteuclidz, on 2019-February-16, 05:57, said:

Thankfully lots of others do not agree . . .. Since I posted this thread the signatures have gone up by 10,000

Any implication of cause and effect? Are you saying "I posted therefore it went up"?
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#7 User is offline   euclidz 

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Posted 2019-February-16, 06:31

View Postshyams, on 2019-February-16, 06:16, said:

Any implication of cause and effect? Are you saying "I posted therefore it went up"?

That's simply silly, the reason it went up by 10,000 was because I sent the same link to my golf club :)
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#8 User is online   PeterAlan 

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Posted 2019-February-16, 06:37

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-February-16, 05:46, said:

It is completely illegal under international law to ban her return and strip her citizenship (you can't make somebody stateless and she has no other country). Also however much you dislike the fact, her baby is British in law and will have rights.

Quite. I choose rule of law over rule of populist petition.
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#9 User is offline   euclidz 

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Posted 2019-February-16, 07:08

View PostPeterAlan, on 2019-February-16, 06:37, said:

Quite. I choose rule of law over rule of populist petition.


Isn't democracy about the people making/changing the law?

Petition now at 300K up 20K in the last couple of hours :)
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#10 User is online   PeterAlan 

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Posted 2019-February-16, 07:47

View Posteuclidz, on 2019-February-16, 07:08, said:

Isn't democracy about the people making/changing the law?

Petition now at 300K up 20K in the last couple of hours :)

1 Hard cases make bad law.

2 300k signatures = 0.5% of the UK population. We have a representative democracy for good reason.

I have no wish to get bogged down in fruitless exchanges with you, so I won't be responding further.
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#11 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-February-16, 09:35

View Posteuclidz, on 2019-February-16, 07:08, said:

Isn't democracy about the people making/changing the law?

Petition now at 300K up 20K in the last couple of hours :)


Trying to recall, aren't you living in the country that voted for Brexit?

Nice learning curve you got there...
Alderaan delenda est
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#12 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-February-16, 09:35

View Posteuclidz, on 2019-February-16, 07:08, said:

Isn't democracy about the people making/changing the law?


Yes.

This is why I live in a Republic.
Alderaan delenda est
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#13 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2019-February-16, 13:23

View Posteuclidz, on 2019-February-16, 06:31, said:

That's simply silly, the reason it went up by 10,000 was because I sent the same link to my golf club :)

It's a links course then? ;)
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
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#14 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-16, 13:46

View Posteuclidz, on 2019-February-16, 06:31, said:

That's simply silly, the reason it went up by 10,000 was because I sent the same link to my golf club :)


Reasonable, probably full of old racist white men, but 10K of them ?
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#15 User is offline   DozyDom 

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Posted 2019-February-16, 16:51

How about we don't make an exception to our country's fundamental rights of citizenship for a literal teenager. We have far more awful criminals abounding in prisons; we don't deport them. Why so keen to change the law for someone who as far as we know has never killed anyone, when you don't make a fuss about domestic criminals?

I'm going to guess at answer to that - it's because you think of her, in your mind, as alien and thus not deserving of rights.
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#16 User is offline   DozyDom 

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Posted 2019-February-16, 17:01

But seriously, it's like you think we don't already have laws against terrorism offences. When she comes back she'll face justice for any offences committed; the justice that's dictated by UK law not made up on the spot when the public particularly dislike a suspect.. Get over yourselves and quit the mob justice mentality; let the courts deal with crimes.
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#17 User is online   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-February-16, 20:43

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-February-16, 13:46, said:

Reasonable, probably full of old racist white men, but 10K of them ?


That’s not fair. If Begum returns to the UK, it is fairly likely that she will never live here as a free person.

However, it must be remembered that prison is where a lot of radicalisation occurs, so she will still be a danger to the community. So it is not unreasonable to not want her to return, even though she must be allowed by law to return. Unless, of course, she was handed over to Syria to face trial there.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#18 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-February-17, 03:53

View PostVampyr, on 2019-February-16, 20:43, said:

That’s not fair. If Begum returns to the UK, it is fairly likely that she will never live here as a free person.

However, it must be remembered that prison is where a lot of radicalisation occurs, so she will still be a danger to the community. So it is not unreasonable to not want her to return, even though she must be allowed by law to return. Unless, of course, she was handed over to Syria to face trial there.


Which would also be illegal as we don't hand people over to countries where torture and capital punishment are possible (and yes we hand people over to the US, but only after the death penalty is taken off the table)
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#19 User is offline   DozyDom 

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Posted 2019-February-17, 09:55

View PostVampyr, on 2019-February-16, 20:43, said:

That’s not fair. If Begum returns to the UK, it is fairly likely that she will never live here as a free person.

However, it must be remembered that prison is where a lot of radicalisation occurs, so she will still be a danger to the community. So it is not unreasonable to not want her to return, even though she must be allowed by law to return. Unless, of course, she was handed over to Syria to face trial there.

I'd be curious as to how you came up with the idea that she'll never be free. As far as reports have suggested, she's only committed S11 and S12 offences under the terrorism act 2000. The max sentence for either of those is 10 years, and given that she's a radicalised teenager, it'd be difficult to justify the whole amount. No one is suggesting she's any particular danger to the public, as well. So it's hard to imagine that she could stay in prison past the age of 40 or so.

And yes, she poses some risk of radicalising people in a british prison. So do domestic terrorists. Drug dealers and addicts contribute to drugs being a vast problem in prisons. Violent offenders contribute to violence in prisons. And yet we don't hand them over to Syria and stop them from seeing their child for the rest of their lives.
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#20 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-February-19, 10:39

View Posteuclidz, on 2019-February-16, 07:08, said:

Isn't democracy about the people making/changing the law?

Representative democracy is about the people selecting smart legislators to do it for them.

Direct democracy results in fiascos like Brexit.

If "the people" made the laws, the US probably wouldn't have the Civil Rights Bill.

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