[pbleighton]

I have been reading about these systems. Questions for those who have a significant amount of experience with them - I'm interested in what happens in practice:
1) The theory is that weak/strong cuts down on interference, particularly on the part of opener's LHO. To what extent does this actually happen?
2) How much do the weak bids mess up the accuracy of the strong bids?
3) What is the net outcome on the weak bids?  Is it a plus, or is it a cost to be subtracted from the advantage gained on the strong bids?
4) What system(s) do you base your comments on?
5) Has anyone played Tangerine? It looks like fun. Does it work? Do any world-class players currently play it?

[the hog]

Have played Polish Club and also Svan. I have not noticed any greater/lesser intervention over 1C than say over a Precision C. Some will always try to intervene and this should be welcomed as it gives you a greater opportunity for a good score, by doubling the opponents. We are very happy when the opponents announce Twerb, (Suction), or wonder bids.

Find the 1C bid has no significant loss over time, and you have big gains by keeping the bidding low on 17-19 hands eg
1C 1?
1NT     17-19

Can't comment on Tangerine - have read it but never played it.

[pbleighton]

Have played Polish Club and also Svan. I have not noticed any greater/lesser intervention over 1C than say over a Precision C. Some will always try to intervene and this should be welcomed as it gives you a greater opportunity for a good score, by doubling the opponents. We are very happy when the opponents announce Twerb, (Suction), or wonder bids.

Find the 1C bid has no significant loss over time, and you have big gains by keeping the bidding low on 17-19 hands eg
1C 1?
1NT     17-19


Thanks for the answer.  Just to clarify though (maybe my post wasn't clear, or I'm not clear on your reply), I was mostly interested in your evaluation over strong/weak club versus strong club.  

You have said that there isn't any significant difference in interference between strong and weak/strong. Is the bidding in Polish (say) on the big hands as accurate as it is in (say) Precision, given that in Polish you have to distinguish between 17-22 any shape, 12-14 balanced, and 12-16 4+ clubs (in a writeup I looked at).  This may be naive, as it is coming from someone who is just now making the transition from Standard to 2/1, and has never played a hand of any club system in his life, but it seems that the lesser bids will either take up bids (maybe only as relays) or cause uncertainty for the responder even after the opener's rebid, or both.  Whereas in a strong club system such as Precision, all of opener's rebids explicate a 16+ opening.

Or to put it another way, if there is no less interference over 1C in a weak/strong system than there is in the strong system, what is the advantage of playing them?

[the hog]

"Is the bidding in Polish (say) on the big hands as accurate as it is in (say) Precision, given that in Polish you have to distinguish between 17-22 any shape, 12-14 balanced, and 12-16 4+ clubs"

Yes, as the hand strength is fairly narrowly defined on the rebid. eg in Polish, (depending on the version played).

1C 1M 1NT = 12-14/15
1C 1D 1NT = 17-18
1C 1D 2M = Acol 2 type hand
1C 1D 1H is prepared and does not promise H. - different in some other versions. This continuation style is a little more complex, but better imho. We have never had problems here. You nearly always now if opener has the strong hand, and if you are so weak that you would pass 1C 1D 1H/S, it does not matter as you won't have a game. Note also that
1C 1D
1H 1S/NT
2H         shows a strong hand, but not as good as an Acol 2 - see comment above.

Is it as accurate as Precision? It is not as accurate as a relay style precision, but is no less accurate than normal precision. Polish Club includes a number of asking bids, also 1C 1M 2D is a relay, guaranteeing support with a strong hand and is a relay for shape.

Svan is not quite as accurate as the above.
The 1M structure and continuations in these systems is not dissimilar to 2/1 style

Also note that Italians - Bocchi-Duboin and Lanzarotti-Buratti play 2 way C systems in which 1C can be a min opening or a GF. Their approach is a little different, as over 1C 1D/H/S are transfer Walsh style responses with 0+ points !!!! (- Now 2C by opener is the GF).

Why play these systems if opps frequently interfere? Opps who try to disrupt your bidding at all costs often get themselves into strife. Opps may well still have a game(slam?) after a 1C opening and by interfering on rubbish are actually disrupting their own constructive bidding. For some players , opening with 1C when this might be strong is like showing a red rag to a bull. When I have played against the Poles  or Svan or stuff the Italians are playing, our defensive bidding is similar to what it would be against any natural system.

I personally like the 2 way C systems a lot. I like the way the bidding stays low on the 18-19 hands to allow sensible exploration - (particularly if coupled like in many Swedish systems with 2C + 2D as checkback). I like the fact that despite what many think, they are quite natural in their approach. I like the fact that the 1D opening shows Ds - believe me this is a huge winner! I like the fact that many hands which are problem hands in 2/1 eg the "Bridge World Hand of Death" are far more easily handled. In my view I much prefer these systems to 2/1 or sayc

If you are interested in this style and want to look at something with a huge level of complexity attached, look at Ron Klinger's Power system, which is a full relay system based on Vienna. - very difficult to learn, but a lot of fun.

[keylime]

I've played a two way club opening at various times of my bridging life, and I tend to notice that the flight A/X players tend to wait before making a bid, to see the true nature of the 1C opening revealed (especially Polish club).

I see some merit with the opening but it should have a working NT opening and rebid range to make it a solid tactical weapon.

[mishovnbg]

Top bulgarian pair Kalin&Rumen play 2 way or may be better to say many way 1CL system. I many time talked with them about.
1) Worse position after preempt vs 1CL prec.
2) Depend of "web" of bids. Rumen&Kalin use transfers&relays with high accuracy.
3) 1CL "many way" allow "variable" from vul and position bids like "mini" NT with great advantage.
4) Rumen-Kalin
5) Sorry no Tangerine.

[DrTodd13]

1) The theory is that weak/strong cuts down on interference, particularly on the part of opener's LHO. To what extent does this actually happen?

Zero reduction in interference. People just always seem to treat it as strong and proceed to bid non-constructively.

2) How much do the weak bids mess up the accuracy of the strong bids?

Lot of room on the strong side to figure out the right spot.

3) What is the net outcome on the weak bids? Is it a plus, or is it a cost to be subtracted from the advantage gained on the strong bids?

It's fun to periodically play a 3-2 fit with 15 pts and the 1 level. See point #5 below.

4) What system(s) do you base your comments on?

Only Tangerine and a modified GCC-legal Tangerine variant.

5) Has anyone played Tangerine? It looks like fun. Does it work? Do any world-class players currently play it?

I'm sure no world class players are playing it. I played it for a while and was fun. If I was going to play a two way system now it would be a Swedish variant...latest version is Carotti?

Todd

[luis]

Hi pb,

I've played Polish club, Tangerine and a dual-club system called "The chameleon" too

1) The theory is that weak/strong cuts down on interference, particularly on the part of opener's LHO. To what extent does this actually happen?

Against such a system you should bid as if it were a natural 1c, so that eliminates obstructive/destructive methods that you may have prepared against a strong club. However nobody plays a prepared defense against a strong club so the difference is almost zero.

2) How much do the weak bids mess up the accuracy of the strong bids?

Depends on the system, usually this is controlled.


Luis

[LukeG]

I have been playing Svan for about six months.

Interference by LHO is much less than over a pure strong club. As Mishovnbg points out, the best strategy for second seat is to wait with a good hand. For example, there is no need for a natural strong NT overcall vs a two way club. If the opening side is weak, the auction starts 1C-p-1D-p-1M and you can still bid 1NT; the opening side will have between 11 and 20 HCP and it's safe to enter. If the auction starts 1C-p-1M then the opening side will have 19+ HCP and it's dangerous to enter.

I don't think that the dual nature of the 1C opening interferes with the bidding of strong hands. In fact, regardless of system, having a bid that promises a minimum balanced hand (which is the least potent trick-taking hand for opener) means that all other bids either have extra high cards or some shape.

Luke

[tangent]

I've played Carrot Club in a regular partnership before (1C = 11-13 balanced or 17+ any). Generally, the players who normally play super-aggressive interference after strong 1C (e.g. 1S promises any hand with 3+ card spades when NV) don't use them anymore. Brown-sticker style interferences (psycho-suction, or a convention where bid of a suit showing that suit or 3 suiter short in that suit) also gets dropped. Not a good idea using those when having a game on your side is still very lightly. In conclusion, interferences are slightly less common and are more constructive than destructive.

[DrTodd13]

I don't know where these people have been playing
weak/strong club systems but against your average
club player or on-line player I've found those people
tend to ignore the weak option and bid destructively.
Even though the weak option is more common, it
reminds them of precision and so they adopt their
normal precision defense even though it is silly. It
might be much better in countries outside the US.
I've never run into anyone playing a weak/strong
club system and so people don't know they need to
bid constructively over them.

[pbleighton]

"I don't know where these people have been playing
weak/strong club systems but against your average
club player or on-line player I've found those people
tend to ignore the weak option and bid destructively.
Even though the weak option is more common, it
reminds them of precision and so they adopt their
normal precision defense even though it is silly. It
might be much better in countries outside the US.
I've never run into anyone playing a weak/strong
club system and so people don't know they need to
bid constructively over them. "

Regardless of the frequency (which it seems varies considerably by location and maybe level of play),
It seems to me that in the long run destructive bidding by the opponents over a weak/strong system would gain you a lot of good results. Do you find this to be so?

[the hog]

It seems to me that in the long run destructive bidding by the opponents over a weak/strong system would gain you a lot of good results. Do you find this to be so?

No the exact opposite. Over 80% of the time the 1C opener will hold a WNT type hand. If you bid destructively over this you run the risk of not finding your own optimum contract.

[pbleighton]

"It seems to me that in the long run destructive bidding by the opponents over a weak/strong system would gain you a lot of good results. Do you find this to be so?

No the exact opposite. Over 80% of the time the 1C opener will hold a WNT type hand. If you bid destructively over this you run the risk of not finding your own optimum contract. "

I believe you misunderstood my (probably unclear) post - I was supposing that destructive bidding BY THE OPPONENTS over a weak/strong club would benefit YOU.

[the hog]

I believe you misunderstood my (probably unclear) post - I was supposing that destructive bidding BY THE OPPONENTS over a weak/strong club would benefit YOU.

Yes it does.