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east bid his hand like a misftting yarbourough. kx of spades is a monster holding and it would be premature to write off kq of d. tx of clubs is plenty opposite 2c, 3c. bid diamonds first, ok, but then investigate a club slam.
Any blame? (1)
#22
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Posted 2018-July-23, 00:32
Lots of talk of 1♣️ opening in the replies.
Do you seriously want to risk being passed out, at any form of scoring, with this hand?
Add just the ♣️J to East’s hand and 6♣️ is virtually certain.
I would never open 1♣️ unless you’re playing 5 Card Majors with a forcing ♣️. Maybe all those advocating 1♣️ are assuming they are.
D.
Do you seriously want to risk being passed out, at any form of scoring, with this hand?
Add just the ♣️J to East’s hand and 6♣️ is virtually certain.
I would never open 1♣️ unless you’re playing 5 Card Majors with a forcing ♣️. Maybe all those advocating 1♣️ are assuming they are.
D.
#23
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Posted 2018-July-23, 00:40
Dinarius, on 2018-July-23, 00:32, said:
Do you seriously want to risk being passed out, at any form of scoring, with this hand?
I always used to think this too, until I started watching Peter Hollands' videos.
He would ask - can you come up with 3 other hands which would pass out 1♣ (and give a bad result)?
#24
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Posted 2018-July-23, 12:28
You don't rebid 3c on a 5422 hand
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Posted 2018-July-23, 12:56
I think the hand is far more difficult that most of the posters imply, and can't help wondering about the extent to which knowledge of the hands influences the views expressed...a perennial problem on bridge fora.
As it is, West has a borderline 2♣ opening. The stiff King of hearts is not much of an asset at the beginning, and the basic outline of the hand can be shown reasonably well by opening 1C, intending, if the auction permits, to show a gf hand with 4+ spades and longer clubs via a jump to 2S later.
Note that 1C is the opening bid that is least likely to be passed by partner, and is also an action that encourages LHO to overcall, by being, as it were, a negative preemptor....one needs far less to overcall at the 1-level than one does to open the bidding.
Personally, I'd bid 1C, but I play with at least two very good players who I think would open 2C.
As for what happens, one needs to know what 2D means. Calling it a relay is uninformative.
What would 3D mean? I think the East hand is close to a 3D response, which typically shows 5+ headed by 2/3 top honours. This hand qualifies, but my style is that one only shows a suit positive with a one dimensional, simple hand. Here, possession of the 4 card heart side suit would stop me: over 3D, we are virtually never finding a 4-4 fit in hearts.
So, after 2C 2D (artificial game-force, denying a 'simple' suit positive hand) West bids 3C.
Now here is a place for a little science. I strongly recommend that over 3C, responder's 3D is NOT natural.
I suggest that you can play for many years before you will miss a good diamond contract when the 2C bidder rebids 3C, while you will fairly often find difficulty locating your 4 card major if 3D is natural. What do you rebid as responder with, say, 4=4=3=2? In addition to missing 4=4 majors, if responder is supposed to bid 3N, you often get notrump played by the weak hand, which is often unimportant and sometimes fortuitous, but more often sub-optimal.
There is an easy answer to the problem: use 3D as a 'noise'. It denies the ability to raise clubs and denies a 5+ major suit.
Admittedly, here this gadget, which is very useful, doesn't help. We bid 3D and partner bids 3S, and it is over to us. I think it ludicrous to suggest that responder commit beyond 3N on this auction. Partner (usually) won't pass with a red suit void, and on most hands on which he will pass, 3N will be at least as good as and often better than 5♣
Yes, as responder I like my spade holding, and had I 3 clubs, I'd be pushing higher in clubs. But as it is, I have only tolerance for partner's suit, I hold 9 red cards, including the heart 10, and I hold no side Aces.
3N failed. So what? Sometimes they underlead the heart A. Sometimes hearts split. Sometimes the suit blocks. Sometimes, especially if I never show diamonds, and imply 4 hearts, they lead diamonds.
As it is, West has a borderline 2♣ opening. The stiff King of hearts is not much of an asset at the beginning, and the basic outline of the hand can be shown reasonably well by opening 1C, intending, if the auction permits, to show a gf hand with 4+ spades and longer clubs via a jump to 2S later.
Note that 1C is the opening bid that is least likely to be passed by partner, and is also an action that encourages LHO to overcall, by being, as it were, a negative preemptor....one needs far less to overcall at the 1-level than one does to open the bidding.
Personally, I'd bid 1C, but I play with at least two very good players who I think would open 2C.
As for what happens, one needs to know what 2D means. Calling it a relay is uninformative.
What would 3D mean? I think the East hand is close to a 3D response, which typically shows 5+ headed by 2/3 top honours. This hand qualifies, but my style is that one only shows a suit positive with a one dimensional, simple hand. Here, possession of the 4 card heart side suit would stop me: over 3D, we are virtually never finding a 4-4 fit in hearts.
So, after 2C 2D (artificial game-force, denying a 'simple' suit positive hand) West bids 3C.
Now here is a place for a little science. I strongly recommend that over 3C, responder's 3D is NOT natural.
I suggest that you can play for many years before you will miss a good diamond contract when the 2C bidder rebids 3C, while you will fairly often find difficulty locating your 4 card major if 3D is natural. What do you rebid as responder with, say, 4=4=3=2? In addition to missing 4=4 majors, if responder is supposed to bid 3N, you often get notrump played by the weak hand, which is often unimportant and sometimes fortuitous, but more often sub-optimal.
There is an easy answer to the problem: use 3D as a 'noise'. It denies the ability to raise clubs and denies a 5+ major suit.
Admittedly, here this gadget, which is very useful, doesn't help. We bid 3D and partner bids 3S, and it is over to us. I think it ludicrous to suggest that responder commit beyond 3N on this auction. Partner (usually) won't pass with a red suit void, and on most hands on which he will pass, 3N will be at least as good as and often better than 5♣
Yes, as responder I like my spade holding, and had I 3 clubs, I'd be pushing higher in clubs. But as it is, I have only tolerance for partner's suit, I hold 9 red cards, including the heart 10, and I hold no side Aces.
3N failed. So what? Sometimes they underlead the heart A. Sometimes hearts split. Sometimes the suit blocks. Sometimes, especially if I never show diamonds, and imply 4 hearts, they lead diamonds.
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#27
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Posted 2018-July-23, 16:12
obviously you are much stronger than me, but I think the fact that you were loathe to even open 2C on this hand (and I agree) even WITH 6 pieces is a sign that partner often has 6 more than not. Surely tons of hands with only 5 are far less attractive.
I hate opening 2C when I have to commit to the 3 level at my first natural rebid without 6, but maybe this is a me playing with me thing -- although I did give only the responding hand to a friend and he bid 4C without reservation
edit: oh yay as usual I agree with wank
I hate opening 2C when I have to commit to the 3 level at my first natural rebid without 6, but maybe this is a me playing with me thing -- although I did give only the responding hand to a friend and he bid 4C without reservation
edit: oh yay as usual I agree with wank
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#28
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Posted 2018-July-23, 18:20
mikeh, on 2018-July-23, 12:56, said:
There is an easy answer to the problem: use 3D as a 'noise'. It denies the ability to raise clubs and denies a 5+ major suit.
Admittedly, here this gadget, which is very useful, doesn't help. We bid 3D and partner bids 3S, and it is over to us. I think it ludicrous to suggest that responder commit beyond 3N on this auction. Partner (usually) won't pass with a red suit void, and on most hands on which he will pass, 3N will be at least as good as and often better than 5♣
Yes, as responder I like my spade holding, and had I 3 clubs, I'd be pushing higher in clubs. But as it is, I have only tolerance for partner's suit, I hold 9 red cards, including the heart 10, and I hold no side Aces.
3N failed. So what? Sometimes they underlead the heart A. Sometimes hearts split. Sometimes the suit blocks. Sometimes, especially if I never show diamonds, and imply 4 hearts, they lead diamonds.
Admittedly, here this gadget, which is very useful, doesn't help. We bid 3D and partner bids 3S, and it is over to us. I think it ludicrous to suggest that responder commit beyond 3N on this auction. Partner (usually) won't pass with a red suit void, and on most hands on which he will pass, 3N will be at least as good as and often better than 5♣
Yes, as responder I like my spade holding, and had I 3 clubs, I'd be pushing higher in clubs. But as it is, I have only tolerance for partner's suit, I hold 9 red cards, including the heart 10, and I hold no side Aces.
3N failed. So what? Sometimes they underlead the heart A. Sometimes hearts split. Sometimes the suit blocks. Sometimes, especially if I never show diamonds, and imply 4 hearts, they lead diamonds.
It's a thoughtful analysis as always from you.
I haven't commented on this hand because I've been going around on how it should be bid. My normal agreement with my partner's is that outside of NT hands, 2 ♣ normally shows a 3 loser hand if a minor or 4 loser hand if a major. But with this 22 HCP hand, I just have a tough time opening 1 ♣ with this 4 loser hand. For me, there's just too many points to risk being passed out in 1 ♣.
For those who play a 2 ♥ negative over 2 ♣, 2 ♦ becomes a positive and the hand presents little problem as 3 ♦ becomes natural. But for those of us who play 2 ♦ as simply a waiting bid, the issue is that after the 3 ♣ rebid, a 3 ♦ responder rebid indicates a bust hand whether you play cheapest suit or cheapest minor as a second negative.
The best that I could come up with was to bid 3 ♦ anyway knowing opener has to take another call, then make a positive bid afterward to "erase" the apparent signoff. After 3 ♠, I'd make the same 3 NT call you advocate. With a bust, there's no way a 3 NT call should be made by responder after 3 ♠.