[hotShot]

Winstonm, on May 2 2005, 06:45 PM, said:

Altough I have no proof of it, I would venture to say that if we put this hand in a time machine and sent it back 40-50 years we would find the consensus among the experts of that day for a rousing Kaplan-esque: "Pass.  What's the problem?"

It is interesting that the modern idea in bridge is to bid your values early.  But that does create a whole new set of problems.

Anyone care to comment on why it is more important to bid these values early on than to take the old-fashioned "wait and see" approach?

Thanks.

Any decent partnership will have a bidding system that allowes them to bid the best contract they can bid. They will have ways to submit any neccessary information.
With all information available they will make the right choices.
You will only win in bridge if your opponents make 2nd best choices. The method to do this is to limit the amount of information they have when making a decision.

This is why people open e.g. 2♠ showing 7-11 HCP 5cards in ♠ and 5(4+) cards in a minor. LHO you might hold a clear 2♥ bid over a 1♠ opening and might not be able to bid on 3 level. So when his partner has to make a choice, he will not have the information that his partner has 10+HCP and 5+♥. So your RHO might miss a makable game in ♥ or take you out of a 2♠ -a lot, because he guessed his partner might hold something usefull.

Now if you don't tell your partner that you hold 10 HCP, your LHO might make a (weak) jump and your partner is in the position to guess. He might not be able to disclose his 16+ HCP hand because you might have less than 6, or he will overbid hoping you might have a strong pass. If the bidding comes back to you, it your turn to guess did your partner pass because he hold minimum or did he pass, because he expected you to be minimum and saw no future in bidding on. Your partnership will miss games, partscores and penalty doubles, or misbid because of this lack of information.

With limitted information,not only your bidding but also your play will suffer. What is a good lead, what suit can i play back to my partner, can partner have a honor anywhere? All the little helpfull information you might get from partners bids, are lost if opps cut your information flow as fast as possible. They might even get away with overbids, just because you misplay because of the missing information.

The old-fashioned "wait and see" will only work if your opps stay silent.

[helene_t]

Assuming partner opens 1♦ on 3d2c or 4d4c, maybe even 4d5c, 2♣ might work better than 2♦ if LHO stays silent. But if LHO raises spades, partner will probably support clubs on a 3-card and now I'm afraid 3♦ would be forcing. Maybe partner will double with 2335, in which case I can bid 3♦. All in all, I think it's a tie between 1NT, 2♣ and 2♦. Double and even pass could easily turn out to be the right thing, though. I'd better make my decision fast so that partner is not influenced by my thinking pause.

With a regular p, 2♦ without hesitation.

[luke warm]

Jlall, on May 3 2005, 08:31 AM, said:

Question to the passers: Even if pard reopens with a X, what are you going to do? 2S? Expect him to work this out? It will be hard to have an intelligent auction after passing. Not to mention if pard has a balanced min hes going to pass.

the danger of passing is partner also passing... if he doubles, i pass and lead ♠J... do we have game? i don't know, but if we don't i think defending is better... i really don't like bidding 2nt and i think i'm too weak to double (gf negative).. maybe pass works out badly this time, who knows?

[pclayton]

Winstonm, on May 2 2005, 09:26 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

1D-1S-?

1. Pass
2. Double
3. 1NT
4. 2S
5. 2D
6. Other?

---

1. Pass - (0). Beaucoup problems with this. Frequently pard won't be able to reopen with Hxx and we'll defend 1S. And if LHO raises to 2S, how will I be better placed?

2. Double - (-2). Hand is not suited well for hearts and pard will press to the 3 or 4 level frequently. Tap is being taken in the wrong hand.

3. 1NT - (8). Many spade holdings in pard's hand won't make a difference on the stopper: Q - anything, Kx or Kxx, Axx, AQ - but some will (Ax, AKx). Still - its the least of evils here, and I like the call at MP's. Hand is NT oriented.

3. 2C - (4). Not a bad choice at all, but I'd rather have a 5th club or a little more punch.

4. 2S - (0). I can't value this as a limit raise in diamonds.

5. 2D - (4). Intelligent underbid.

6. Other? 2N (4).

[luis]

I wonder why players that rated 1NT as 10 or 8 rate 2NT as 4 or 5 I think both bids should have very close scorings. If 1NT is 10 and 2NT 8 or 2NT 10 and 1NT 8 is a matter of style but what really doesn't make sense to me is that you can like 1NT and hate 2NT. Look at all the intermediates, JT8 in spades, J9 of hearts, 8 of diamonds, Q98 of clubs to play in no-trump I think the hand is more close to 12 than 11.

[inquiry]

luis, on May 3 2005, 11:30 AM, said:

I wonder why players that rated 1NT as 10 or 8 rate 2NT as 4 or 5 I think both bids should have very close scorings. If 1NT is 10 and 2NT 8 or 2NT 10 and 1NT 8 is a matter of style but what really doesn't make sense to me is that you can like 1NT and hate 2NT. Look at all the intermediates, JT8 in spades, J9 of hearts, 8 of diamonds, Q98 of clubs to play in no-trump I think the hand is more close to 12 than 11.

I think you can get away with 1NT without a stopper, because parnter, if having game value, will check back without a spade stopper and shortage. Opposite a 2NT call by you, he may have more than enough for game in theory but you can lose five spade tricks off the top.

So while any bid works out ok, 2NT I think sets up your for problems more often than not.

Ben

[tysen2k]

With NFB: pass
Without NFB: 2♣

I really don't think pass is too bad. I play NFB so double is out for me since that should show either 4♥ or GF. I'm neither. 2♣ should also show a better suit for NFB. So for me I think it's pass with 2♦ and 1NT in a close tie for second. They could all be reasonable.

Without NFB, I think 2♣ becomes the new winner, but not by much. It shouldn't promise more than 10+ with 4+ cards. That's what I've got even though it isn't pretty.

This hand is much weaker than it looks. Totally flat with spread honors.

Tysen

[luis]

inquiry, on May 3 2005, 04:35 PM, said:

luis, on May 3 2005, 11:30 AM, said:

I wonder why players that rated 1NT as 10 or 8 rate 2NT as 4 or 5 I think both bids should have very close scorings. If 1NT is 10 and 2NT 8 or 2NT 10 and 1NT 8 is a matter of style but what really doesn't make sense to me is that you can like 1NT and hate 2NT. Look at all the intermediates, JT8 in spades, J9 of hearts, 8 of diamonds, Q98 of clubs to play in no-trump I think the hand is more close to 12 than 11.

I think you can get away with 1NT without a stopper, because parnter, if having game value, will check back without a spade stopper and shortage. Opposite a 2NT call by you, he may have more than enough for game in theory but you can lose five spade tricks off the top.

So while any bid works out ok, 2NT I think sets up your for problems more often than not.

Ben

There're some problems that I like to face :-)

[luke warm]

i sorta agree, justin... with

♠ J108
♥ AJ9
♦ K83
♣ Q984

opposite your examples:

Kx
KQx
Qxxxx
KJx

or

Kx
xxx
AQJxx
KJx

and giving overcaller 5 (or 6) spades, i think we'd do ok at 1♠ x'd if we led spades at every opportunity... but you're right, they could make it ....

[inquiry]

luke warm, on May 3 2005, 01:44 PM, said:

i sorta agree, justin... with

♠ J108
♥ AJ9
♦ K83
♣ Q984

opposite your examples:

Kx
KQx
Qxxxx
KJx

or

Kx
xxx
AQJxx
KJx

and giving overcaller 5 (or 6) spades, i think we'd do ok at 1♠ x'd if we led spades at every opportunity... but you're right, they could make it ....

First example with six spades they take 5♠, and two aces, 1Sx making. They maybe able to muster the 13th heart for an overtrick.

Second example, with six spades, they take 5♠, King of hearts, long heart, and club ACE for an overtrick.

[luke warm]

maybe they would, ben... and maybe we take a spade, 3 hearts, a diamond and 2 clubs, especially if the short trump hand gets no ruffs... overcaller probably does have 6 spades, but could have 5... but your point is taken

[Double !]

Wish this were an "assess the blame" question.
I would assess 100% of the blame on playing strong 1NT openers.

Regarding what to bid (or not to bid)
I am leaning toward the underbid of 1NT. I might miss a close game but at least be in the right strain. If partner passes, there's a reasonable possibility that partner has a balanced or semi-balanced minimum. Even with 25 between us the hand might be a race to establish enough tricks before losing too many in 3NT. With shape and/or a stronger hand, partner might just take a second bid over 1NT, at which point I can show some more life.
I don't know if this reasoning is compelling or not, but I suspect that the likelihood of a major error is reduced this way. My decision is predicated on the assumption that partner does not have a balanced/ semi-balanced 14+ to 17.
I really do not enjoy playing strong 1NTs- I do not like them Sam-I-Am

DHL

[whereagles]

Why are you worrying about stoppers when an overcall on Hxxxx and a few hcp is perfectly routine these days?

[Chamaco]

To me, close call between 1NT and 2NT.
Without all the intermediates, 1NT would be automatic; with intermediates, probably the hand has to show invitational values.

I do not like 2C "per se", it does not really decsribe the hand (yes, 4 clubs but this one is a real FLAT hand), but I admit it does have an advantage of potentially rightsiding the NT contract.

[Gerben42]

I hope you are not suggesting passing and then passing partner's double? You don't have a trump trick!
Is this a stripe tailed ape double to make sure they don't make game (2♠x)?

Interesting question: what does
1♦ (1♠) p p X p 1NT / 2NT show? Same as normal with a half-stopper?

[joker_gib]

Gerben42, on May 4 2005, 04:33 AM, said:

I hope you are not suggesting passing and then passing partner's double? You don't have a trump trick!
Is this a stripe tailed ape double to make sure they don't make game (2♠x)?

Interesting question: what does
1♦ (1♠) p p X p 1NT / 2NT show? Same as normal with a half-stopper?

Hi Gerben,

Well, 1NT can also be a stopper and a bal hand <= 5 HCP, no ?

Alain