[scoob]

you hold:

Scoring: IMP

---

and open 1NT

partner replies 2♣ (presumably some non-GF stayman)

RHO interferes with 2♠ (natural)

rebid?

[Free]

scoob, on May 17 2005, 01:09 AM, said:

you hold:

Scoring: IMP

---

and open 1NT

partner replies 2♣ (presumably some non-GF stayman)

RHO interferes with 2♠ (natural)

rebid?

Pass, what else??

[luke warm]

i agree.. let's see, i suppose partner knows i'm, on avg, 16 hcp and, on avg, 4432... let's see what he has to say

[mr1303]

Yep, pass looks good, and I'll pass again if partner doubles....

If partner bids anything else I'll bid my hearts

[whereagles]

I think a bid of 3H is more constructive at this stage than a muddy pass.

[LH2650]

3 hearts.

I’m on an excellent maximum, partner presumably has an invitational hand with a 4 card major, and I’m accepting. The vulnerability does not allow me to play 2 spades doubled. If I pass, partner bids 3 clubs, and I bid 3 hearts, is that forcing? I don’t intend to find out.

[Free]

whereagles, on May 17 2005, 10:02 AM, said:

I think a bid of 3H is more constructive at this stage than a muddy pass.

You're V vs NV, and p can still have a garbage stayman... Good luck writing -1100.

If p is invitational, he still has his lebensohl-or-whatever tools to ask again...

[joker_gib]

Free, on May 17 2005, 04:30 AM, said:

whereagles, on May 17 2005, 10:02 AM, said:

I think a bid of 3H is more constructive at this stage than a muddy pass.

You're V vs NV, and p can still have a garbage stayman... Good luck writing -1100.

If p is invitational, he still has his lebensohl-or-whatever tools to ask again...

Totally agree with Frederick and I pass too !

Alain

[luke warm]

whereagles, on May 17 2005, 03:02 AM, said:

I think a bid of 3H is more constructive at this stage than a muddy pass.

how is pass muddy? doesn't partner know your general shape and your strength to within a jack?

[whereagles]

Luke: There we go again... a 15-17 balanced hand is NOT a complete description of one's hand. There is still a lot to be said about it, and since 15-17 is already a rather independent hand, opener may want to take action.

Pass is more like a 4333 or 4432 hand, very likely a min with defensive values, unsure of what to do. Here there is no doubt: you want to bid game, and the clearest way to do it is bidding hearts.


Fredrick: I don't have an habit of thinking in terms of worst case scenarios. It is very unlikely that pard has the weakish 4-4-4-1 hand. And even if he does, he have a heart fit anyway.

Besides, I can play cards. I don't go for -1100 just like that. But ok, maybe a -1100 is a normal occurrance to *you*...

[Free]

whereagles, on May 17 2005, 12:43 PM, said:

Fredrick: I don't have an habit of thinking in terms of worst case scenarios. It is very unlikely that pard has the weakish 4-4-4-1 hand. And even if he does, he have a heart fit anyway.

Besides, I can play cards. I don't go for -1100 just like that. But ok, maybe a -1100 is a normal occurrance to *you*... 

Ok, maybe you always look on the bright side of life, I on the other hand consider all possibilities... Garbage stayman can be done with 4-3-5-1's as well as something else, so are you REALLY sure you have a ♥ fit? NO! And what if partner just has an invitational hand withouth ♥ and a silly 8HCP? You'll play a nice 3NT -1 or more because you only have 1♠ stopper, and even the best player in the worlds wouldn't be able to make the contract.

If you'd have a 5 card ♥, I'd be able say you know a little how to bid properly. I haven't seen any proof of your awsome playing capabilities, so I won't (dis)agree on that. But when I make crazy bids like this, indeed, -1100 would be the score since I can play cards to, and won't go for -1400 or even less...

[Gerben42]

I would double with 4 cards in ♠ (must contain a trump trick). I do not have those so I pass. Lebensohl is on.

Partner is in a much better position to judge what is going on so for the rest I will leave it up to him. With a garbage Stayman hand we have the majority of trumps and he will pass. Otherwise he can bid 2NT (natural!) or perhaps something else.

Don't fight please.

This post has been edited by Gerben42: 2005-May-17, 05:59

[flytoox]

whereagles, on May 17 2005, 09:02 AM, said:

I think a bid of 3H is more constructive at this stage than a muddy pass.

The problem is pd didnt promise hearts, he could have spades.

[reisig]

I don't use garbage Stayman - so partner is never weak. I play that Pass denies a stopper (no other meaning) and any bid is natural but includes a S stopper. So 3H does both. Partner does not promise a Major with 2C ...but I was accepting a try anyway.

[MickyB]

Free, on May 17 2005, 12:54 PM, said:

But when I make crazy bids like this, indeed, -1100 would be the score since I can play cards to, and won't go for -1400 or even less...

Good job I'm passing then, otherwise I'd be going for 1700

[whereagles]

Free, on May 17 2005, 11:54 AM, said:

Ok, maybe you always look on the bright side of life, I on the other hand consider all possibilities... Garbage stayman can be done with 4-3-5-1's as well as something else, so are you REALLY sure you have a ♥ fit? NO! And what if partner just has an invitational hand withouth ♥ and a silly 8HCP? You'll play a nice 3NT -1 or more because you only have 1♠ stopper, and even the best player in the worlds wouldn't be able to make the contract.

If you'd have a 5 card ♥, I'd be able say you know a little how to bid properly. I haven't seen any proof of your awsome playing capabilities, so I won't (dis)agree on that. But when I make crazy bids like this, indeed, -1100 would be the score since I can play cards to, and won't go for -1400 or even less...

1. Considering all possibilities is nice, but incomplete. One must also consider the probability of each possibility. Pard can have:

- Invitational or better hand. In this case I have a max and want to bid game. I could skip a large penalty if pard has good spades, but that's it. In any case I'm going to bid and make my game, be it hearts or NT.

- Garbage. In this case 4-3-5-1 is just one out of the various shapes pard can have. He can be 4-4-4-1, 4-4-3-2, 3-4-5-1 and a few others. Besides, even if pard has 4-3-5-1, there are ruffs in the short hand, so it won't be a disaster.

So passing here on the excuse of "pard can be weak it's a misfit" is putting all eggs in one basket: pard having a weak 4-3-5-1. This is bad strategy, consequence of bad statistics.


2. About 3NT -1 with pard having 8 hcp. An invitational pard won't have less than 10 (1NT is 14-16, remember?). If pard has hearts, we play 4H. If he has spades, I still can't see any compelling reason for 3NT NOT to make. After all, we rate to have 2-3 stoppers.


3. About large penalties. When I was less experienced, I also made some crazy bids which would go for -1100 or whatever. With time I realized these frisky bids are not to be made at random. I developed a judgement which can tell me when I should make such a bid and when I should pass. It so happens that my judgement tells me one thing on this hand: "BID".

[joker_gib]

reisig, on May 17 2005, 07:27 AM, said:

I don't use garbage Stayman - so partner is never weak.

OK but what do you do if you play garbage Stayman ?

Alain

[inquiry]

I double, and this is not close. This hand is maximum even if you play 15-17, as it has prime values, is as short in their suit as can be expect, and has support for the other suits. If you pass, your parnter's double will be for takeout, so if his four card major is spades, you may have just missed the 2♠X opportunity. So pass is bad. In addition, 3♥, excuse me, is a wacky bid. Dbl for takeout and see what happens, as now your partner will be in the best position to make an intellegent continuation.

Ben

[Free]

whereagles, on May 17 2005, 02:09 PM, said:

~snip~ An invitational pard won't have less than 10 (1NT is 14-16, remember?).  ~snip~

Since when should I remember things which aren't correct? Unless mentioned otherwise, 1NT is standard 15-17. And even if it's 14-16, don't you ever invite with 9HCP?

Plz don't start with wrong arguments, it won't help you and it only takes space from an honest thread... I'm done wasting my time on this silly argument, don't know why you wanted to get me in the first place, and I don't really care anyway.

When the history of the hand is posted, I can already see what's going to happen:
- either you were right and you'll feel victorious (but then my partner will probably bid again and we'll find the same contract)
- your judgement really failed you, but you'll play great and note only -1100, and you'll be convinced that your bid will win in the long run so no harm done

[mr1303]

Ben makes a good point. If double is take-out then that looks like the right thing to do.

However, since most of us haven't discussed this sequence, how many people will take this double as take-out, or who will take it as showing 4 spades?