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No Trump Ranges

#1 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2003-July-18, 07:08

This thread continues Misho Part 2 (Precision), on a subject of particular interest to me.

My partner and I, playing SA, have been playing 11-14 NT for a couple of months. We will shortly be switching to Precision, and are trying to decide what NT range to use initially. With another partner, I have played Precision using first a 12-15, no 4 card major, in an off-shape Precision variant (since abandoned), and then 10-12 NV/14-16 Vul, which seems to be OK.

I am considering:
1) 10-12 NV/14-16 Vul
2) 10-12 all vuls
3) 11-13 all vuls
4) 11-14 all vuls
5) 12-15 all vuls
6) 10-12 NV/11-13 Vul
7) 10-12 NV/11-14 Vul
8) 10-12 NV/12-14 Vul
9) 10-12 NV/12-15 Vul

I'm looking for some guidance from those who have played a weak NT. Any general comments/recommendations, plus:
1) We very much like weak NT. We are inexperienced, and perhaps enjoy its preemptive nature a little too much. Richard (Hrothgar) suggested to me using 10-12 at all vuls. My gut says YES, but I'm wary of my gut. Does anyone have experience playing 10-12 Vul? Is 11-13 much safer?
2) We started playing 11-14 with only "good" 11s, but in practice this has changed to most 11s (open 11 unless very bad). The 4 point range has given us problems a couple of times, though we like the opening frequency. What do you think of 11-14, and even more, 12-15. We are thinking of 12-15, plus opening (34)-1-5 shapes 2D, so that 1D will always have at least 3 diamonds, almost always 4, and never be balanced. What is you experience with 4 point notrump ranges?

Peter
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#2 User is offline   luis 

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Posted 2003-July-18, 07:29

Hi pb,

I've suggested this in another thread, but can't hurt to post it again, my recommendation is:

10-12 NV vrs V
12-14 Equal VUL
15-17 Vul vrs NV

Luis.
The legend of the black octogon.
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#3 User is offline   mishovnbg 

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Posted 2003-July-18, 16:37

I dont like any natural 1/2NT opening, but I played with JeiJei 1NT opening as follow:
1. 1/2 position:
not vul: 9-11
vul:15-17
2. 3/4 - 14-16

Note: After 9-11 ( or 10-12 ) you need different responses and different bids after opp intervention!

Misho
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#4 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2003-July-18, 16:41

Misho writes:
"Note: After 9-11 ( or 10-12 ) you need different responses and different bids after opp intervention!"

I have read that I need different stuff. Can you provide me what you use, and/or a link(s) to such a method?
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#5 User is offline   mishovnbg 

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Posted 2003-July-19, 19:40

Quote

I have read that I need different stuff. Can you provide me what you use, and/or a link(s) to such a method?


After mini NT (9-12):

1. Without intervention:
2CL: weak stayman
2DI: GF, nat or weak transfer in 5+HE
2HE: GF, nat or weak transfer in 5+SP
2SP: GF, nat or weak transfer in 5+CL
2NT: GF, stayman
3CL: GF, nat or weak transfer in DI
... any other bids above, say nat pre-empts

2. After DBL from opp
RDBL: strong, will dbl them
Pass: 3-4 CL, weak
2CL: 0-2 or 5+CL
2DI and above, nat, weak

Note: after 1NT-(dbl)-2CL-(dbl), Pass-Pass-RDBL=SOS, 2-CL
Misho
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#6 User is offline   Scoti 

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  Posted 2010-June-22, 23:01

Why accept the traditional narrow range of 3? I use 5. :) Why not? Are you really going to get preempted by letting opener make the final decision? (Well you risk that already by playing so low in range. so what) Opener knows what he has hcp. Responder does not need to. Everyone knows responders responses. Just alter his range to make 3nt or 3 anything a call for Slam try , not Game. Opener decides on game trys. Works for me anyway.
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#7 User is offline   655321 

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Posted 2010-June-23, 01:41

That is a real necro!
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
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#8 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2010-June-23, 09:08

655321, on Jun 23 2010, 02:41 AM, said:

That is a real necro!

2003? I wonder if any of these posters are necro ;)
Hi y'all!

Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
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#9 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2010-June-23, 09:15

Scoti, on Jun 23 2010, 12:01 AM, said:

Why accept the traditional narrow range of 3? I use 5.  ;) Why not? Are you really going to get preempted by letting opener make the final decision? (Well you risk that already by playing so low in range. so what) Opener knows what he has hcp. Responder does not need to. Everyone knows responders responses. Just alter his range to make 3nt or 3 anything a call for Slam try , not Game. Opener decides on game trys. Works for me anyway.

Hi,

have a look at the following thread
http://forums.bridge...topic=36491&hl=

The thread deals with 4 point ranges, but whats being said is also
applicable to 5 point ranges.

But if it works for you and your partner, than there is no reason to change.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#10 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2010-June-24, 04:19

My 2 cents worth...

1) You don't say whether you're thinking of using this mainly for MP or IMP scoring. It seemed to me that, when I played Precision, it was much more suited to IMP scoring. And the old chestnut against the weak NT (that it risks a big set) obviously carries a lot more weight at IMPs than it does at MPs.

2) Regardless of the method of scoring and whether it is Precision or anything else, the NT range is part of the overall system - you can't just play any old range and expect it to fit with everything else - your wide range of options in the OP seems to suggest to me that you're not thinking bigger picture....

3) I've never played a (true) 4 point range and don't personally feel inclined to try. I do know some folks that have experimented with mini NT and gone back to normal weak NT - but do play 11-14 NV - they seem to like it.

4) Especially if we're talking MP scoring, the weaker ranges work best not so much at fav vuln, but when it is white vs white - it pays opps to compete then - as our undertricks aren't very valuable to them and their undertricks aren't costly if we're making 1NT or maybe 1NT+1. The more red on the board, for either side, the more you don't want to risk the opening in the first place and the more the opps are going to want to leave you in it if you do.

5) There seem to be several ways to go with these "Precision" (i.e. strong club) systems. I played (12)13-15 with the 1 opener properly natural (i.e. 4 cards) - and we simply passed 11s and average looking 12s that didn't fit the openings - which seemed to work OK - yes there were some bad boards when we might have opened - there seemed to me to be at least as many good ones when we were better off out of it. Others like short diamond openings - makes your 1 opener much more complex, but gets you into the action more often. Others intent on opening as often as possible structure their openings around 1 that is 15+, rather than 16 - I have no experience of it - but it is an option. Yet others are more conservative and think of 1 as 16+ unbal, but 17+ bal - obviously they want a 14-16 NT with maybe 11-13 in 1st and 2nd when white. These are all different ways to go - seems to me to be as much a matter of temperament which you choose as any other criterion.

Nick
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
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