[Winstonm]

No opposing bidding.
1S-2C
?
Do you raise or bid 2H? What are your reasons?

---

[inquiry]

This is a tough question, Am I playing SAYC or 2/1 GF. Is this Matchpoints or imps. Do I have a way to get back into hearts if I raise clubs here or are all new suit bids attempts at slam or 3NT? Does 2♣ promise five?

If 2♣ was 'game force" I will bid 2♥ then raise clubs. I like 2♥ for a couple of reasons. First, I reserve 3♣ immediately to show extra values. This hand lacks that (but nice distributional value). Second, once again as in the other thread, I live in hearts (AKJ really needs to be mentioned). So my bidding plan here is to bid hearts then raise clubs. Likely auctions..

1S - 2C - 2H - 2N - 3C (perfect one in my mind)
1S - 2C - 2H - 3N - pass (ok, I use 3NT as weaker than 2NT in GF auction
1S - 2C - 2H - 2S - 3C (complete picture, two suit agreement for blackwood)
1S - 2C -2H -3D - 4C (complete picture, this is real "support" else not bid past 3N

All these club raises are limited by the failure to raise immediately.

Ben

[mike777]

2H in a flash.
This is where my HCP are.
Assume 2c=game force 100% no exceptions.

[P_Marlowe]

2H.

Bidding my shape.

Since 2C promises a rebid, I can complete
my description with a delayed raise of clubs,
besides 2C may only be a 4 cards suit.

For me the raise would force to game, so a raise
is out of the question, unless 2C already forces to
game.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Winstonm]

Is it possible to use the immediate raise to show two types of hands? Either I hold extra values or I hold shape. If I raise clubs, I can still find hearts at the three level; however, if I bid hearts and pard bids 3D, clubs are lost unless I wish to bypass 3NT. Does anyone see this as a potential problem? Thanks.

WinstonM

[mike777]

Winstonm, on Apr 19 2005, 11:24 AM, said:

Is it possible to use the immediate raise to show two types of hands? Either I hold extra values or I hold shape. If I raise clubs, I can still find hearts at the three level; however, if I bid hearts and pard bids 3D, clubs are lost unless I wish to bypass 3NT. Does anyone see this as a potential problem? Thanks.

WinstonM

3D?? On going question does it promises real D or just 4th suit, unclear direction, concern over D stoppers?

I prefer case 2 but in either case I am now bidding 4Clubs, I love my hand.

[whereagles]

2H for me, eventually followed by 3C. Just plain simple bridge here

[pclayton]

Playing 2/1, but a repeat of responder's suit cancels the GF in most cases:

2♥ and pattern out if given the chance.

[flytoox]

Any bid other than 2H goes beyond my imagination. And I doubt at table anyone will bid differently.

[HeartA]

2♥, the only option. My strength and shape.

[EricK]

I bid 2♥.

It is unlikley to be wrong to make the cheaper bid if it also shows a significant feature of your hand.

The only problem I can see is if responder is able to rebid a non-forcing 3♣. Now we might belong in 3♣, 5♣, 3NT (or possibly even 4M), and would have no way to investigate. But bidding an immediate 3♣ doesn't really solve that problem anyway - it just transfers it to partner!

Eric

[ochinko]

I bid 4♦ if it's a splinter not a suit and fit. What do I gain by knowing that partner has 4 hearts as well?

Petko

*Edit* Scrap that. 2H, of course. Thought partner had opened 1Sp. Sorry

[luke warm]

i'd have to bid 2♥ here, that's what my hand is... hopefully we're playing 2/1 gf

[Winstonm]

Some points here I think worth mentioning.

First, assuming 2/1 G.F., there are two auctions that become problematic with a 2H rebid. First is if partner follows with 3C - most play this cancels the G.F. in a non-fit auction. However, an immediate raise of clubs would create a force to 3N or 4 of a minor if 3N is unplayable. I'd hate to guess what to do over his 3c if he held A, xxx, xxx, KQJ9xx or xx, Qx, xxx, AKQxxx. I would expect to reach 5 clubs much more easily on either hand after an initial raise.

Second problem is if partner bids 3D as fourth suit forcing. Now, unless I bypass 3N I cannot show the club support and partner does not have to have a slam try hand for this bid: Ax, xxx, xxx, AKJxx would do. A 2H rebid now makes life very awkward for me when he follows with 3D. On this hand we would land on our feet in 4S, but what if partner bid instead of 3D chose 3N on Ax, Qxx, Qxx, AKJxx?

Lastly, is it really so much of a concern if partner has 4 clubs only? If so, he must have some type of balanced or semi-balanced hand and is looking for the best strain. Most of the time that he bids 2C on a 4-bagger he will then either support spades on his next bid or bid some number of NT. If he has 4 hearts, he can bid those as well.

I'm not claiming that 3C is a better bid than 2H, but I do see it as a lot closer than it appears and not at all a poor or wrong choice.

WinstonM

[cherdano]

I don't understand either of your problems, WinstonM. If you are willing to force to 4m with an immediate 3♣ raise opposite a not game-forcing 2♣ bid, you can bid on over 3♣ as well (with 3♦ e.g.). If partner bids 3♦, what is wrong with bidding 4♣? You have described your hand well, and partner, having forced to game, will be well placed to make the final decision. (Certainly bypassing 3NT cannot be a worry opposite a partner that asks for a diamond stopper).

Arend

[han]

Easy 2H imo. It is not unlikely that I can paint a perfect picture of my hand by bidding 3C (or 4C if partner rebids 3C) next.

[the hog]

2H obvious. In a 2/1 system if pd bids 2N I can show my shape now with 3C.

[helene_t]

If 2♣ is not game force, it can't promise 5: what would partner do with a ballanced 11 points, then? Ok, in Lawrence's system 1NT would be 6-11 and 2♣ is either almost GF with 6+ clubs or GF with usually 5+. But even then you should bid 2♥ now, the only issue being if you would pass responder's next 3♣ bid.

Playing standard, you have to bid 2♥ now and pass responder's next 2NT bid. But fortunately he will bid 2♠ or 3♥ more often. Btw, 3♥ from responder after your 2♥ is forcing in Biedermeijer. In SAYC as well?

[Walddk]

What is the alternative to 2♥ I wonder. When did partner promise 5 clubs? And even if he did, what's the rush? I would bid 2♥ on 5404 too. It's forcing in any system I know.

3♣ would show 5-4 and deny 4 hearts. On rare occasions the raise can be on 3 cards, but then it's unsuitable for a 2NT rebid. This hand for example:

AQJ65
82
A95
K106

If we belong in NT, we will get there after 3♥ from partner. Minors we bid, we only play there reluctantly, unless it's at slam level - alternatively, if partner has a small doubleton heart too, and not 2 spades.

8
J9
KQ104
AQJ874

Roland