[JLilly]

Playing the robots,

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Ptr (N, dealer) opens 1♠. With my shape and our vulnerability, I figure it's okay to call these 12 HCP a 2/1 game force, and bid 2♦. With 6 diamonds, I thought it made sense to focus them, especially since ptr bid spades to begin with, and so can it rebid 2♥ if we have a 4-4 hearts fit, without needing reverse strength. Ending up in a 6-1 spades, 6-{2,1} diamond, or 5-2 clubs contract at the three-level is acceptable if we have no major fit. With this shape, a 4-card major, and a xx doubleton, I'm thinking I should bid oriented toward suit contracts rather than 3NT.

Here's how the bidding proceded:

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And down comes:

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(ending up -100)

Should I have bid 2♥ or 3♥ when I had the chance? Why did the robot rebid ♠ *twice* when it had a cheap (below my suit) four-card suit? I feel like the auction should have gone 1♠--2♦--3♣--3♦--P. Although I understand the idea that a new suit after opening light is going to mislead one's ptr. . .

And regardless of my bidding, doesn't the 2♠ rebid denote 6+ spades (or possibly 5{332} with a light opening that wants to sign off below game despite partner's 2/1)?

[spotlight7]

1S-2H shows 5+ suit in non canapé type bidding,


I like 1S-2D-2S*(as a waiting type bid) to allow responder to bid 2N or 3m.


2/1 systems are 100% game forcing 'or' unless responder rebids his suit.


Bridge World 2/1 is a 3 of responders suit rebid is invitational.


Either the Max Hardy or the Lawrence 2/1 it is also passable.


I prefer the 100% game force method.


You should not miss club fits after 1S-2D-2S* because responder can now bid 3C, 3D or 2N.


1S-2D-3C is a 'high reverse' showing extras in standard methods.


I still do promise extra HCP or shape with a 3C bid by opener.


My 1S-2D-2S*-3H suggests a 5 card minor.

[m1cha]

JLilly, on 2017-March-29, 16:10, said:

Should I have bid 2♥ or 3♥ when I had the chance?

Yes. 3♥ as your first rebid should have helped, showing 5+♦, 4♥.

JLilly, on 2017-March-29, 16:10, said:

Why did the robot rebid ♠ *twice* when it had a cheap (below my suit) four-card suit? I feel like the auction should have gone 1♠--2♦--3♣--3♦--P.

There are several versions of 2/1 FG:
- Opener's rebid on the 3 level may or may not show additional strength. GIB plays that it does promise additional strength (some 15+ points iirc).
- Opener's rebid of a high-level suit at the 2 level may or may not show additional strength. GIB plays that it does not promise additional strength.
Anyway, since opener had a weak hand, GIB could not bid 3♣, it had to bid 2♠ waiting. 2♠ does not promise additional length in this case.

GIB could have bid 2♥ with a 4-card ♥ suit, so when GIB bid 2♠, it was already unlikely that you have a ♥ fit. Anyway, 3♥ was describing your hand.

JLilly, on 2017-March-29, 16:10, said:

And regardless of my bidding, doesn't the 2♠ rebid denote 6+ spades (or possibly 5{332} with a light opening [...]?

2♠ is forcing and can occasionally be very strong!

3♠ promises a good 6-card suit, so GIB was lying. The alternative would have been a bid of 3NT, but 3NT promises stops in the remaining suits (♣ and ♥) but opener did not have a stop in ♥. So opener was left without a suitable bid and unfortunately for you decided to lie about the ♠ length. If you had bid 3♥, GIB would not have worried about a ♥ stop and would have bid 3NT.

[wank]

you say your hand was worth a 2/1 game force, and that's the system you were playing, yet you're suggesting the bidding should end below game and in fact you passed below game.

2 spades by the robot is normal - bidding 3 clubs is a 'reverse' and shows extra values which it doesn't have. 3 spades though was wrong and should have more spades.

[mycroft]

I think 3♠ was "last chance to bid 3NT, I don't have hearts stopped."

I agree with those who say "if you thought it was a game force, then don't pass short of game." One of my rules is "once you've decided your hand is an X, don't change your mind. You're guaranteed to have made a mistake if you do, and it's frequently the last one."

I'm not saying that you should not re-evaluate your hand in the context of the auction. I just mean "I wish I hadn't game-forced because we're in a horrible misfit", rather than "this is no longer a game force, I'm going to pass." You can have a bad response, a bad game force, or an incredible single raise - in context - but it's still a response, a game force, or a single raise.

Once you agree with me that you can't pass 3♠ (or 3♦ for that matter), then what do you do? There's "no fit" (although there could still be a diamond fit), and partner didn't bid hearts or NT itself. Why? Because it doesn't have hearts, and doesn't think we can make 3NT without some. You have AQxx. They're not running hearts - especially if the opening lead is coming into you. Bid 3NT. If partner drops a crappy misfitting 11 and you can't make it, well, then, your 12-count wasn't good enough to game force this time. If partner drops the misfitting 12 and you do make it, well done! Your decision to be aggressive will win IMPs from those who weren't.

I have sympathy with those who suggest 3♥ at second turn is right with this hand. I probably wouldn't have done it, because partner would likely show 4 hearts either instead of 2♠ or after 3♦. I also, even in a game-forcing auction, like to believe that reverses show extras - or at least imply extras. Others differ in their opinion.

[johnu]

mycroft, on 2017-March-30, 04:20, said:

I think 3♠ was "last chance to bid 3NT, I don't have hearts stopped."

I suppose it could also mean GIB doesn't have clubs stopped. You'll drive yourself crazy if you try to overanalyze some of GIB's decisions which are based on "rules" that nobody knows. Bridge logic and GIB logic sometimes reach the same result, but probably not through the same thought processes.

[1eyedjack]

Of the two, I think 3S is more likely to show concern about unstopped hearts than unstopped clubs. With 2+ potentially unstopped suits, the more standard treatment, including that I believe played by GIB, is that a bid of one of those suits shows that suit and concern about the other. So with concern about clubs he might bid 3H instead of 3S.

[m1cha]

mycroft, on 2017-March-30, 04:20, said:

One of my rules is "once you've decided your hand is an X, don't change your mind. You're guaranteed to have made a mistake if you do, and it's frequently the last one."

I'm not saying that you should not re-evaluate your hand in the context of the auction. I just mean "I wish I hadn't game-forced because we're in a horrible misfit", rather than "this is no longer a game force, I'm going to pass." You can have a bad response, a bad game force, or an incredible single raise - in context - but it's still a response, a game force, or a single raise.

This rule is so good and so important that I want to copy it here without further comment.

1eyedjack, on 2017-March-30, 15:28, said:

Of the two, I think 3S is more likely to show concern about unstopped hearts than unstopped clubs. With 2+ potentially unstopped suits, the more standard treatment, including that I believe played by GIB, is that a bid of one of those suits shows that suit and concern about the other. So with concern about clubs he might bid 3H instead of 3S.

This is a good point. In addition, if South bids 3NT now (probably promising two spades), North may still pull to 4♠ with a really good suit. On the other hand, North may have no stop in either ♥ or ♣. Bidding 3♥ by South (if your system permits which GIB does) solves this puzzle and may also lead to a good contract of 4♥ in a 4-3 fit if you find out that neither partner stops the clubs.

Sometimes there's an alternative by jumping to 3NT early before telling the opponents with which suit you have a problem. This often works because if you have one weak suit you may have 9 top tricks in the other suits and
- the opponents don't find the killing lead or
- they switch to a good suit,
- you find out partner has a stop or
- a 10 turns out to be a stop or
- they can run the bad suit but get only 4 tricks or even
- the suit happens to block.
I've seen all of these. Unfortunately I've also seen hands where GIB fails to bid 3NT although it has the stops, so it's sometimes necessary to bid 3NT without stops and just hope.