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Math Education, elementary

#141 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2016-November-02, 12:17

View PostKaitlyn S, on 2016-November-02, 11:18, said:

I don't think the government as the Founding Fathers intended it will perish under Trump but I fear that it might under Hillary.

Again, I hope I am wrong, because we are very likely going to have Hillary Clinton as our president, and you all, who are mostly very smart people, seem to think that she will do a fine job, and either do not fear a move toward socialism, or support it.


False dichotomy. Rejecting Trump is not the same as supporting Clinton, or socialism. These are standard scare tactics.

For what it's worth I consider both candidates bad, although one much more so than the other. That our political system led us to this point is a sign of how broken it is.

I have no sympathy for R voters. This election was yours for the taking. Clinton is very unpopular and even many erstwhile Ds don't like her. All you had to do was nominate anyone reasonable and you would have won the presidency. Instead you bent over backwards to find the only way to lose. No sympathy at all.
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#142 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2016-November-02, 12:54

View PostKaitlyn S, on 2016-November-02, 11:18, said:

I said that I feared Common Core for reasons that the government would use it in a political way. That should have been enough, but one poster requested that I back up that argument. I tried to do that by stating my true belief that Hillary is trying to move the country toward socialism, for better or for worse; I think that many of our youth think it's for the better so she will get their full support, but I feel it's for the worse.


I actually requested that you provide a critique of the common core.
I specifically requested that we focus the discussions on hard sciences and mathematics and to avoid civics and history.

You interpreted this as meaning that I was interested in some kind of political screed.
That was never my intent.

For convenience sake I will repeat my posting from last night (which you apparently missed or have chosen to gloss over)

Quote

In a previous post you asserted the following: "If I thought that it was "proven" that children would learn math better by some system that I didn't understand all that well, I would still be in favor of it."

It it appears as if you are stating that we should measure the Common Core by evaluating its effectiveness imparting information to students.
However, the critique that you are presenting of the Common Core would appear to be some kind of meta narrative about the coming of the anti-Christ.

As such, the criticism that you have leveled is not responsive to the evaluation criteria that you originally specified...

Alderaan delenda est
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#143 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2016-November-02, 13:26

View PostKaitlyn S, on 2016-November-02, 11:18, said:

I said that I feared Common Core for reasons that the government would use it in a political way. That should have been enough, but one poster requested that I back up that argument. I tried to do that by stating my true belief that Hillary is trying to move the country toward socialism, for better or for worse; I think that many of our youth think it's for the better so she will get their full support, but I feel it's for the worse.

I stated my reasons for thinking that. Of course, as was to be expected, when I actually post links to articles, people say that the sites I linked to are unreliable nutjob sites.

Am I falling for something? Only time will tell. Hillary will probably be our president for the next eight years, and it should be pretty obvious whether I fell for something or whether I was right and you all fell for something. I sincerely hope I am wrong here because I love our country. And while Donald Trump is likely to be a total disaster, we are still likely to have a democratic republic when he is finished. However, when I look at the last line of Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address:

and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

I don't think the government as the Founding Fathers intended it will perish under Trump but I fear that it might under Hillary.

Again, I hope I am wrong, because we are very likely going to have Hillary Clinton as our president, and you all, who are mostly very smart people, seem to think that she will do a fine job, and either do not fear a move toward socialism, or support it.

If you support it, let's just agree to disagree. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours because we're talking fundamental beliefs here.

If you don't support socialism but don't fear that Hillary will move in that direction, then you can feel good that much of the country feels the same as you do, and if you are correct, then I will be proven wrong in eight years. For the sake of our country, that is really the best scenario because I can't see much good coming from a Trump administration. However, if you feel I am falling for something ridiculous, you will be surprised how many other are falling for it too - Donald Trump will get at least 40% of the popular vote in all likelihood.

For those of you who do support socialism, let me tell you a story which I believe to be true (but it might be some nutjob site propaganda!) A professor of a course on political ideologies gave his first test. Some students studied like hell and got an A, and others slacked off and got an F. The professor announced that since he was currently teaching socialism, he would share the grades equally among the students, so they all got a C. The next exam, fewer studied and the result was a D- for everybody. The third exam, those who worked hard realized the futility of their efforts and nobody passed so the entire class got an F. When the professor asked the class if they wanted him to grade in a manner more consistent with capitalism, the answer was a resounding yes - even the slackoffs didn't want to screw their classmates.




I have put quite of bit of thought into it and have read much of the liberal argument. To me, it is not convincing. I've tried to weigh the evidence on both sides and after doing that, it appears from where I'm sitting that the Breitbarts of the world have it right. However, it doesn't bother me when people try to convince me that I'm wrong, for I realize I might be wrong. But none of us have all the information and I easily could be the most correct too. There are issues that I have taken a softer stance on after considering the liberal position. For example, I am not nearly as dismissive of the man-made climate change argument as practically every other conservative in America, and that comes from reading both sides' arguments and trying to think critically about each one.



You claim to be willing to see both sides of an argument, but all you do, repetitively, is spout right wing talking points as if they were valid arguments or valid facts.

Your story about the grades is almost surely false, if only because it reflects a right-wing delusional idea about socialism. That you are delusional on the topic is also evident from your fear that Clinton will create a socialist society but that Trump, for all his failings, will honour the ideals of democracy. Whoa!

I won't spend much time on Trump other than to point out that he has a very strong authoritarian streak in him, and thinks that Putin and Assad and Saddam and even that wingnut in North Korea are better, stronger leaders than Obama. I wasn't previously aware that those were democratic leaders.

More to the point, your belief that Clinton would impose socialism reflects three delusions. One is with respect to the power of the Presidency in your country. One cannot possibly create a socialist country through executive action: it would come about, if at all, through legislative action and the President has no power to create legislation. At most the President can enlist allies in Congress to draft and put forward legislation. Do you seriously think that Congress would do so?

The second one is that there is literally NO evidence that Clinton is a socialist. In fact, it is arguable that Sanders, who loves to call himself one, isn't either. But that is beside the point. Clinton, and the Democratic platform (which is never going to become law anyway and reflects the wishes of those zealous enough to get involved (in the same way that the more abhorrent parts of the Republican platform are never going to be enacted even with a Trump presidency and republican control of Congress)isn't socialist and doesn't come close to espousing a socialist philosophy.

I know, you probably believe that Obama is a socialist. You may even question whether he is a citizen....I'd guess that you claim that you don't really think he isn't but that one can never be sure. And of course that has nothing to do with the colour of his skin or his name...after all, you aren't a racist...we know that because you say it with such assurance.

Both of these delusions, and especially the one about Clinton being a socialist, stem from a third and most insidious delusion or, more accurately, a commonly-shared ignorance amongst most Americans, especially right wing Americans.

The problem lies in the use of 'socialist' as an insult, going back one hundred years or so, exacerbated by the fact that the Soviets liked to call themselves socialists, and thus socialism became associated with fear of communism.

There are very few (I think the number is likely zero) socialist countries in the world. I know of none within the western world. However, a lot of Western European countries have systems, and popular political parties, that reflect the principles of Social Democracy, which does take some ideas from socialism.

For example, nationalized health care (the bizarre notion that access to health care should, in a rich country, be universal) is both socialistic and a tenet of social democracy. So to the extent that Clinton would like to see a single payer system enacted, one could say that she is supporting one socialistic idea. Of course, she isn't saying that, because experience suggests that the grip of the for-profit health care system on the (ill-informed) US population isn't about to lose its strength anytime soon. But I accept that, being an intelligent woman, she may well support it.

The major tenet of socialism is government ownership of the major means of production of resources and goods! Where is the actual evidence that ANY Democratic politician supports, for example, the nationalization of Apple, or Google, or GM, or Ford, or Esso, or....the list goes on.

In reality, as opposed to the right wing bubble in which you appear to live, Clinton would be seen in most advanced countries as a centrist, and (as with Obama) slightly to the right of centre.

To return to your story, I suppose it is possible that some idiot somewhere (and possession of a PhD is no assurance that the holder is not an idiot)might have done something like this, tho I strongly doubt it. However, such would in no way reflect the principles behind socialism, and only someone who has never bothered to try to think for herself would think otherwise. There are good sources available in your public library. There are even good sources available online, tho a very large number of them are in fact websites promoting the nonsense in which you seem to believe. For instance, I doubt that you would learn any reality by going to Breitbart to look it up, lol. However, my description of what socialism means is something that is readily verifiable if you are willing to filter out the right wing loonies. Hint: anyone who says that Obama is a socialist is a right wing loonie.
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#144 User is offline   alok c 

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Posted 2016-November-02, 13:31

View PostWinstonm, on 2016-November-02, 11:47, said:

This is why you might be having problems: first, you wish to agree to disagree about socialism, but not without first providing a vapid tale that sounds like the plot of an unpublished Ayn Rand short-story to "prove" your views should prevail.

Ayn Rand? More like Aesop's.
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#145 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2016-November-02, 13:41

View PostKaitlyn S, on 2016-November-02, 11:18, said:

For those of you who do support socialism, let me tell you a story which I believe to be true (but it might be some nutjob site propaganda!) A professor of a course on political ideologies gave his first test. Some students studied like hell and got an A, and others slacked off and got an F. The professor announced that since he was currently teaching socialism, he would share the grades equally among the students, so they all got a C. The next exam, fewer studied and the result was a D- for everybody. The third exam, those who worked hard realized the futility of their efforts and nobody passed so the entire class got an F. When the professor asked the class if they wanted him to grade in a manner more consistent with capitalism, the answer was a resounding yes - even the slackoffs didn't want to screw their classmates.

Sounds like a pretty obvious right wing parable. True stories come with related facts like names, dates, locations, that can be confirmed. If you have those, you can convince me. I'm listening.
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#146 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2016-November-02, 14:07

View PostKaitlyn S, on 2016-November-02, 11:18, said:


For those of you who do support socialism, let me tell you a story which I believe to be true (but it might be some nutjob site propaganda!) A professor of a course on political ideologies gave his first test. Some students studied like hell and got an A, and others slacked off and got an F. The professor announced that since he was currently teaching socialism, he would share the grades equally among the students, so they all got a C. The next exam, fewer studied and the result was a D- for everybody. The third exam, those who worked hard realized the futility of their efforts and nobody passed so the entire class got an F. When the professor asked the class if they wanted him to grade in a manner more consistent with capitalism, the answer was a resounding yes - even the slackoffs didn't want to screw their classmates.





I have another thought experiment for you. This one will be more demanding than the last one I suggested.

You are to imagine you have died. Mr. Jordan has escorted you up into the clouds to the gate into Heaven. And then comes the big surprise! Entrance into Heaven has absolutely nothing to do with the life you have led on Earth. It all comes down to a quiz. The Heavenly Gatekeeper asks you whether you believe this story about the Prof to be true or false. The Heavenly Gatekeeper is, of course, omniscient. You get the answer right, you are in. You get the answer wrong, you will be kept very warm.

Above you say that you believe it, but the stakes are mild for posting here. You will still stand pat? If so, and if in fact it is true I think you will pretty much have Heaven to yourself. The rest of us will be Down Below, hoping for a cool breeze.
Ken
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#147 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2016-November-02, 14:16

http://www.snopes.co...m/socialism.asp

#148 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2016-November-02, 14:24

View Postdiana_eva, on 2016-November-02, 14:16, said:


Thx, Diana

I wonder if this revelation will cause Kaitlyn to decide that maybe she should make a conscious effort to step outside of her bubble of rightwing ignorance.

I doubt it. Most people, and I don't exclude me from this tho I try on occasion, tend to react to information contradicting their cherished beliefs by doubling down on the belief and rationalizing the contrary evidence. So I suspect that she will simply acknowledge that she probably got this wrong, but reason that it doesn't alter the underlying truths to which she holds.

I have, it seems, fallen back into the habit of posting. I think I will stop now. I had my reasons and those reasons haven't changed.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#149 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2016-November-02, 14:41

View Postalok c, on 2016-November-02, 13:31, said:

Ayn Rand? More like Aesop's.


:)
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#150 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2016-November-02, 15:15

View Postmikeh, on 2016-November-02, 14:24, said:

I doubt it. Most people, and I don't exclude me from this tho I try on occasion, tend to react to information contradicting their cherished beliefs by doubling down on the belief and rationalizing the contrary evidence. So I suspect that she will simply acknowledge that she probably got this wrong, but reason that it doesn't alter the underlying truths to which she holds.

True. Google "cognitive dissonance".

#151 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2016-November-02, 15:21

I suppose a better understanding of socialism and its pitfalls might be had in reading Von Mises' Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis.
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#152 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2016-November-02, 15:57

View Postblackshoe, on 2016-November-02, 15:21, said:

I suppose a better understanding of socialism and its pitfalls might be had in reading Von Mises' Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis.


https://youtu.be/2j3adcbEwSM
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#153 User is offline   Elianna 

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Posted 2016-November-02, 16:15

View Postdiana_eva, on 2016-November-02, 14:16, said:



That's what I get for not reading the whole thread before I google, I got the same result. First hit, so rather easy to find.
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#154 User is offline   Elianna 

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Posted 2016-November-02, 16:38

View PostKaitlyn S, on 2016-November-02, 11:18, said:

I said that I feared Common Core for reasons that the government would use it in a political way. That should have been enough, but one poster requested that I back up that argument.


You are more than welcome to state whatever fears you have, but I think that the point is to examine them to see if they are reasonable. I have a true and definite fear that people will get hurt whenever they leave the house, but I know in my head that is not a reasonable fear, so I leave the house to go do normal things. It doesn't stop having nightmares about car accidents or dying, but that still doesn't mean that it's statistically reasonable.

I don't remember if I was the poster that requested that you back up that argument (my guess is that I wasn't - I see that Hrothgar is claiming to be the person) but not to speak for others, but the point of asking you to back up that argument is not because I (for one) don't believe that you aren't afraid, it's more to try to determine if your fears are ones that we should adopt, too. And also, for you to examine your fears and see if you believe that they are ones that should control how you think.

Quote

There are issues that I have taken a softer stance on after considering the liberal position. For example, I am not nearly as dismissive of the man-made climate change argument as practically every other conservative in America, and that comes from reading both sides' arguments and trying to think critically about each one.


See, and my problem is that this, and common core, should not have political positions.

Politicians don't seem to need to take a position on things like the Pythagorean Theorem, the Theory of Gravity, Dark Matter, or String Theory, but they seem to think that they need to take a stance on things like Evolution. I accept that they can dictate that it shouldn't be taught (though I would think that they're wrong) but to expound about how it's wrong when they don't understand the science behind it (or don't want to understand) casts them in a ridiculous light. I feel the same about common core. I don't really care what non-experts think about the math and learning stages detailed in it (of which I would lump politicians), I care more about what experts in how students learn think about it.
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#155 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2016-November-03, 03:26

I have a compromise suggestions. Let's adopt Common Core, but only for Maths and English language.
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#156 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2016-November-03, 03:27

View Postbillw55, on 2016-November-02, 12:17, said:

Instead you bent over backwards to find the only way to lose.

Not sure about that. The runner-up was Ted Cruz, the most disliked politician in all of DC.
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#157 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-November-03, 04:40

View Postcherdano, on 2016-November-03, 03:26, said:

I have a compromise suggestions. Let's adopt Common Core, but only for Maths and English language.

English language is "dangerous". The teachers (proxy for the police state obviously) can choose essay subjects that will corrupt the minds of the students. That leaves just maths but perhaps we best stop teaching maths altogether as it encourages people to think about things. And those that think about the world are highly likely to reject the Creationism, religious gospel, conspiracy theories and other such subjects that are routinely given as acceptable in red states without any kind of central control. If your political party relies on the voters following a belief system that requires poor education, it is only natural to want to avoid any improvements to that system! Turning such improvements into a conspiracy theory is thus completely logical and fits perfectly to the target audience of ignoramuses for which it was intended.
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#158 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2016-November-03, 06:48

Just remember the old Beatles song Math is all you need.
Ken
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#159 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2016-November-03, 07:03

View Postcherdano, on 2016-November-03, 03:27, said:

Not sure about that. The runner-up was Ted Cruz, the most disliked politician in all of DC.

How many electoral votes for DC? Posted Image

Probably Clinton could beat Ben Carson. Cruz, maybe, but I would bet on him. I wasn't being literal; my point was that there were several R choices that would have won. In my opinion, of course.


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#160 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2016-November-03, 07:50

More seriously, when it comes to history, culture, etc I think the first thing that has to be faced is that no matter what is done someone, quite a few someones, will think that it is wrong.
Further, any teaching of values is going to be very rocky.
Curiosity and a healthy skepticism are useful I think.

We were shown a short movie, maybe twenty minutes, in civics class when I was 16. This was 1955 and the movie was a documentary of sorts from the (pretty recent) days of WW II. It spoke of German aggression, that was expected, but it also went on at some length about the bravery of the Russian people in their resistance. You have to understand the time period. The McCarthy-Army hearings were a year earlier. There were commies everywhere, check under the bed. The teacher, Mr. Tighe, did not draw out any conclusions but I did, and I think he intended such thinking. Propaganda changes with the times, perhaps. Or something on that order. Mr. Tighe was a very interesting man. As to discipline, he once explained his approach: " I am not under the impression I can make you do what I say. I do believe I can make you wish you had." He had very few problems. He had expectations of us. The first half of the year was on Civics, the second half on Psychology. There was a term paper for the latter and he suggested to me that I do it on Freud. "Who's Freud?" "Oh, Ken". I did a fairly well researched paper on parapsychology (I interviewed a psychology prof at the U to get his views, for example) and the experiments by Rhine and others at Duke. He accepted it, but clearly it was not his preference. He was an interesting guy.

I think it is ok for a teacher of history/civics/culture to have views of his/her own, I don't see how s/he could not. It can be valuable for the teacher to express his/her. But not to ram these views, the instructor's views or the school board's views, whatever they might be, down the students' throats. It's tricky.
Ken
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