[Mkgnao]

antonylee, on 2016-October-11, 14:05, said:

Sent the challenge to mkgnao, waiting for a reply...

I played the boards.

[antonylee]

I won by 17, 40-23 http://webutil.bridg...131&u=antonylee

GIB misdefended a couple of hands, e.g. this five card ending.

[sfi]

Semifinal set 1: sfi 27 - 8 nige1

http://webutil.bridg...476196815&u=sfi

Once again the computer decides to gift me 17 imps in a slam for no clear reason, except this time both opponents combined for a ridiculous result. ATB anyone?

[ovncylmz]

gordontd, on 2016-October-11, 10:38, said:

It just strikes me as odd that some of those who qualified for the knockouts should get a smaller carryover than those who didn't. But of course it is for fun and is not a big deal.

Umm, maybe my explanation was not clear.

Original plan was to start the consolation at the same time with R16. So normally those guys would have played two matches, then people losing in R16 drop in, but worked differently. My observation from ACBL and WBF for the transition from KO to pairs is similar to what I did. People who lose in the group stage start playing Open Pairs Qualification. People who continue in KO and then lose may drop the to Pair event in Semi Final , but they do not start in front of the others - they are placed somewhere in the middle of the pack.

Because of the time issue, we started the consolation little bit late, and it was convenient to include R16 losers. However, it would be unfair to people in the Swiss if they tried their chance in KO and also start from the top of the Swiss.

[ovncylmz]

Consolation

Match 3
antonylee-frank0
mkgnao-m1cha
elwood913-ovncylmz
zebutin-smerriman
cherdano-gordontd
barmar-stoppiello

Match 4
antonylee-m1cha
frank0-elwood913
mkgnao-ovncylmz
zebutin-cherdano
smerriman-barmar
gordontd-stoppiello

All four losers in Quarter Final dropped in as the 33th percentile - from the bottom (between 5th and 6th places out 8 players).

We have time until Sunday 7PM NYC time to wrap this 2 x 12 boards up. Then we will have a 5th and final round based on the new standings.

Good luck to everybody!

Cheers

p.s. smerriman and cherdano, please do your best at least accepting your game vs. zebutin before Friday so he can play (he is gone for the weekend, so worst case scenario you accept by Thursday so he can play early and you can finish even on Sunday)

[gordontd]

ovncylmz, on 2016-October-11, 19:21, said:

However, it would be unfair to people in the Swiss if they tried their chance in KO and also start from the top of the Swiss.

Not "tried their chance" but "earned their place". So, no, I can't agree with you. that they should start below those they had earlier beaten. In fact it might have been better not to have a carry-forward, as is quite common for consolation events. But I only continue it as a discussion, not because I've very bothered about the ranking.

[ovncylmz]

gordontd, on 2016-October-12, 00:29, said:

Not "tried their chance" but "earned their place". So, no, I can't agree with you. that they should start below those they had earlier beaten. In fact it might have been better not to have a carry-forward, as is quite common for consolation events. But I only continue it as a discussion, not because I've very bothered about the ranking.

Okay so I have the following question. If things worked as planned and let's say 8 players started Swiss (and played first two matches) while top 16 started playing R16 and following is the standing in Consolation event:
A 32
B 31
C 30
D 29
E 28
F 27
G 26
H 25

Now we have players I, J, K, L who lost in R16 and want to join this event. Do you want to see them joining the pack from the top because they were better than these folks in the group stage?

[ovncylmz]

Void

[gordontd]

ovncylmz, on 2016-October-12, 05:51, said:

If things worked as planned and let's say 8 players started Swiss (and played first two matches) while top 16 started playing R16 and following is the standing in Consolation event:
A 32
B 31
C 30
D 29
E 28
F 27
G 26
H 25

Now we have players I, J, K, L who lost in R16 and want to join this event. Do you want to see them joining the pack from the top because they were better than these folks in the group stage?

Based on what we do in live events in these sorts of situations I would expect them all to go in the top half of the field, but with their carry-forwarded adjusted to take some account of how they had done in their knockout. We also usually make them play the top-ranking players in the Swiss, so assuming I J K & L are listed in score order, I would have matched A with I, B with J, C with K, D with L.

[ovncylmz]

gordontd, on 2016-October-12, 06:07, said:

Based on what we do in live events in these sorts of situations I would expect them all to go in the top half of the field, but with their carry-forwarded adjusted to take some account of how they had done in their knockout. We also usually make them play the top-ranking players in the Swiss, so assuming I J K & L are listed in score order, I would have matched A with I, B with J, C with K, D with L.

Yes, but "the top half approach" makes sense when there are 100+pairs where a big portion of them are completely irrelevant for the title race. So you basically place the drop-ins and give them a chance to win the event if they do quite well. I also cannot imagine a carry-over system for these guys related to their group phase performance. They are losers of the R16 or QF, the previous group performance became irrelevant.

Our case, the number of registrants was only 5. And the top VP was 22.6 where drop-ins get 17.1 (5.5VP difference to the top), which I still find quite reasonable. In the first two matches, antonylee did great reaching 54.9VP and the new drop-ins (including me!!) get around 36VP - almost 20VP difference to the top, maybe not even reachable in 3 matches.


Anyways, this is how I tackled with it for this time - if you have a more clever way of doing this, you can propose the format with full details. This is the first time we use both the Groups&KO format with some Consolation to keep everybody in for a long time, and I think it works well so far. We are open to any improvements for the future - however adding a lot of mathematical calculations into it makes it very complicated, so please keep it simple.

Final Note: I would be the person who get the highest amount of damage from the current structure - I had the highest VP in the group stage. But the Consolation event is mainly targeting people losing in the group stage, therefore you can think drop-in addition as a way to diversify the field and add some extra fun.

[gordontd]

ovncylmz, on 2016-October-12, 10:12, said:

Yes, but "the top half approach" makes sense when there are 100+pairs where a big portion of them are completely irrelevant for the title race. So you basically place the drop-ins and give them a chance to win the event if they do quite well. I also cannot imagine a carry-over system for these guys related to their group phase performance. They are losers of the R16 or QF, the previous group performance became irrelevant.

Our case, the number of registrants was only 5. And the top VP was 22.6 where drop-ins get 17.1 (5.5VP difference to the top), which I still find quite reasonable. In the first two matches, antonylee did great reaching 54.9VP and the new drop-ins (including me!!) get around 36VP - almost 20VP difference to the top, maybe not even reachable in 3 matches.


Anyways, this is how I tackled with it for this time - if you have a more clever way of doing this, you can propose the format with full details. This is the first time we use both the Groups&KO format with some Consolation to keep everybody in for a long time, and I think it works well so far. We are open to any improvements for the future - however adding a lot of mathematical calculations into it makes it very complicated, so please keep it simple.

Final Note: I would be the person who get the highest amount of damage from the current structure - I had the highest VP in the group stage. But the Consolation event is mainly targeting people losing in the group stage, therefore you can think drop-in addition as a way to diversify the field and add some extra fun.

My simple solution was mentioned above - no carry forwards to the consolation.

[antonylee]

I thought a reasonable way for the carry-forward that leaves a decent chance for the drop-ins would be to give them half of their group stage VPs, plus twice the VPs they would have gotten for the score of their losing QF match (and so on for later entrants). So their group-stage carry-forward is a bit higher than the others, but their QF carry-forward is below average. (But as you said, I won't complain that this format gave me a decent lead :-))
The WBF continuous scale only goes up to 32-board matches (which is already quite a lot for a swiss :-)), so you can either use the formula at http://www.bridgebas...post__p__667202 (there's a link to an app below) or just score the QF as two consecutive 32-board matches. (Yes, I know it's not actually linear. And it doesn't matter for this event, does it?)

[olegru]

stephen tu-olegru part 1
http://webutil.bridg...139562&u=olegru
13:53 (40 for olegru)

stephen tu-olegru part 2
http://webutil.bridg...181668&u=olegru
26:22 (4 for stephen tu)

stephen tu-olegru part 3
http://webutil.bridg...233990&u=olegru
21:41 (20 for olegru)

[smerriman]

smerriman 21 - zebutin 8
http://webutil.bridg...710&u=smerriman

smerriman 8 - barmar 29
http://webutil.bridg...563&u=smerriman

[ovncylmz]

gordontd, on 2016-October-12, 11:31, said:

My simple solution was mentioned above - no carry forwards to the consolation.

LOL - how do you add R16 and QF losers into the tournament?

[ovncylmz]

gordontd, on 2016-October-12, 11:31, said:

My simple solution was mentioned above - no carry forwards to the consolation.

1) Consolation event is mainly for people who couldn't qualify for the KO stage to continue playing in an organized form. Plus, the winner may get 1CP (challenge points - which R16 losers also get 1, QF losers get 2, SF losers get 3, 2nd place gets 5, 1st place gets 7 for seeding of next events).
2) Consolation starts with some type of carryover from groups. Why? Because I want people to take their last matches serious in the groups even if they are not doing great if they want to continue in this event.
3) Normally drop-ins from R16 come after 2nd match of the Consolation. Did not happen this time because of logistics issues, but they need some kind of adjustment to have a chance to catch the top, but should not be at the top - because this is clearly not fair to players in the consolation who already got some carryover but also played some matches in the consolation event. Then drop-ins from QF can come after the 4th match. Same thing for them, they need to start from somewhere, but not at the top. And maybe they play 3 more matches - and someone wins at the end of Round 7.

So, there will be some carryover/adjustment/carryforward (whatever you call) for sure. The way Antony says is not bad, but it is still against the spirit of this event. Now think about a person who did very well in the group (let's say 80VP) and also won the R16 with really big difference (20-0 in terms of VP scale) and then lost QF very little (9.9-10.1 let's say). Now whatever you do for this person his carryover/adjustment calculated will be extremely high. For our case, if Antony was not doing this great, maximum VPs would be around 40VP.. This imaginary guy starts with 70VP (80/2+20+9.9).

One more time, this event is mainly targeting people who got knocked out in the groups:)

Final note: Feel free to read what I wrote multiple times and write whatever you want, I won't explain again - sorry.

[stoppiello]

stoppiello 15 - gordontd 16 Thank you very little to the bot who decided to sink me on the last hand

http://webutil.bridg...69&u=stoppiello

[frank0]

consolation
http://webutil.bridg...246611&u=frank0

frank0:antonylee 3:1 (frank0 +2IMP)

[m1cha]

Consolation:
I just lost to antonylee by 1 IMP 13 - 14.

http://webutil.bridg...6246630&u=m1cha

[sfi]

Semis set 2: nige1 37 - 4 sfi

http://webutil.bridg...476233524&u=sfi