[hrothgar]

jillybean2, on Apr 11 2005, 09:21 PM, said:

How would you protect against this becoming a free for all TD bashing forum? I remove a player from my tournament for unacceptable behavior (as stated in tournament description) but which he/she finds perfectly acceptable.

From the sounds of it, this is precisely the type of "event" that this system is designed to address. I think that the community is much better served if these types of issues are discuss openly, under the light of day rather than whispered about in back alleys.

In my experience, Open forums are pretty good at identifying the "cranks" and the "nutjobs". In a similar fashion, if an "anonymous coward" starts posting complaints about a well respected TD, they proibably won't get much credence. Alternatively, if there are large numbers of compliants about a single TD this also bears watching. As I've noted in the past, auction sites like EBAY have well designed user feedback systems that are designed to allow buyers and sellers to provide feedback regaridng the quality of other individuals using the auction site.

Its astounding that a system that works so well for a professional business that many individuals use to make a good living is considered so controversial for a hobby site. Guess that I should ahve learned by now...

[epeeist]

jw_nl, on Apr 11 2005, 01:04 PM, said:

epeeist, on Apr 11 2005, 12:04 PM, said:

jw_nl, on Apr 11 2005, 09:10 AM, said:

....
->KIB: Automated message:  Director TD is now at the table  as requested by EAST
....

I'm assuming you cut and paste this, so it's not a typo.

Unless the directions are mixed up -- and the rest of the questions suggest not, given that North asked about 3♠ -- it was EAST, who made the bid that should have been alerted, that called the TD. So there seems to be something missing from the story, problems previous board or rounds also, or maybe insults or refusal to answer questions or something?

I replaced the names of the players by NSEW, the name of the TD by TD, the name of the host by HOST and my name by KIB. So EAST was angry about the remarks of NORTH and called TD.
It was the first board of the tournament. Nothing happened before (at least during this tournament).

jw

At least with what appeared publicly, east seems to have had a chip on his/her shoulder, to get angry with those remarks by north and calling TD when simply asked about failure to alert, deciding to leave tournament, etc. East might well have been rude (in private conversation) to TD or refused to answer questions? Either of which could lead to adjusted result. Just speculating.

[cherdano]

Gerben42, on Apr 11 2005, 05:50 PM, said:

I doubt TD flowcharts are going to help against TDs who make these kinds of decisions. This is about judgement, which appear to be absent with both North and the TD.

The question that needs to be answered here is: "Was North damaged by the lack of alert of 3♠." I agree with others that the answer to this is No.

I am not sure you are right. I think many TDs believe the flow chart is

Quote

Was there an unalerted bid that should have been alerted? Yes=> Assign A+/- for the non-offenders.

Arend

[fred]

hrothgar, on Apr 11 2005, 06:46 PM, said:

Its astounding that a system that works so well for a professional business that many individuals use to make a good living is considered so controversial for a hobby site. Guess that I should ahve learned by now...

I don't think it is so astounding.

I have never used Ebay, but I believe there is a fundamental difference between that site and BBO that explains things:

The Ebay community is just a bunch of random people buying and selling things.

Members of the BBO community form close personal relationships with one another. They also form networks of friends. I doubt this sort of thing happens to anywhere near the same extent on Ebay. In addition many BBO members actually know each other or know of each other in real life.

So when another BBO member publicly humiliates you, it would not be unreasonable for you to be upset since such an action could easily impact your BBO-friendships and your standing in the community.

Maybe that's why some people are resistent to this sort of thing, even if it works well on Ebay.

Then again, maybe Ebay is a more closely-knit community than I imagine and maybe people who sell on Ebay don't like their rating sytem either. However, in Ebay's case, having a system like this is a practical necessity as the buyers need protection from unscrupulous sellers. I don't think BBO players *need* protection from bad TDs. Most BBO players just want to play in free tourneys. If implementing a TD-rating system caused their to be fewer free tourneys then I suspect that most of our members would not be happy.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[hrothgar]

Hi All

Laval Du Breuil created a book for new tournament directors which can be purchased from http://www.vinceoddy.com/aids.htm

The books presents a comprehensive series of flow charts documenting the underlying logical process used to create rulings on different topics. All the flowcharts were examined by the ACBL and reviewed for accuracy. Laval would be happy for us to use the graphics files that he generated so long as attribution was provided and reference was made to the book.

Alternatively, the logic embodied in the graphics could be embodied into an HTML based wizard of some kind

[hrothgar]

fred, on Apr 11 2005, 10:10 PM, said:

I have never used Ebay, but I believe there is a fundamental difference between that site and BBO that explains things:

The Ebay community is just a bunch of random people buying and selling things.

Members of the BBO community form close personal relationships with one another. They also form networks of friends. I doubt this sort of thing happens to anywhere near the same extent on Ebay. In addition many BBO members actually know each other or know of each other in real life.

So when another BBO member publicly humiliates you, it would not be unreasonable for you to be upset since such an action could easily impact your BBO-friendships and your standing in the community.

Maybe that's why some people are resistent to this sort of thing, even if it works well on Ebay.

Criticism does not necessarily equate with public humiliation. In an ideal world, all criticism would be completely constructive and the feedback system would serve as a wonderous tool that directors are able to use improve their understanding of the law. In practice, we all live in an imperfect world. I'm quite sure that we'd also see cranks whose posting style was malicious and deliberately hurtful.

With this said and done... The role of tournament director is, by definition, a public one. More importantly, an individual who claims the role of TD director deliberately establishes themselves as an authority figure.

I find it surprising that individuls believe that they should be able to claim this function while simultaneously maintaining the expection that that should be shielded from any public criticism regarding performance.

[hotShot]

If a friend needs help to paint a wall, you help him paint the wall, but you don't claim to be a painter.
At BBO people need help to play a tourney. Someone has to host it. So people host free tourneys on the base i host one for you, i hope someone of you will host one, where i can play too.
This has a different quality than claim to be a TD.
Of cause these hosts should follow the Bridge Laws and we should give them some help to do that.
We should also remember that some rulings are much harder online.
In a f2f tourney you hear, when a player gets loud.
In a f2f tourney the players don't just leave, if they don't like the result of a board.
And most important, you usually speak the same language and know your players.

[jillybean]

hrothgar, on Apr 12 2005, 05:00 AM, said:

I find it surprising that individuls believe that they should be able to claim this function while simultaneously maintaining the expection that that should be shielded from any public criticism regarding performance.

I don’t think anyone has claimed this. TD’s are not at all shielded from criticism, anyone is able to give feedback directly to the TD during or after a tournament, and they do!

We already have feedback and resolution methods, here in the forum and via ‘abuse’.

I don’t see how naming names will help the process, those who are interested will read the tournament feedback and recognize names if it’s relevant. If it becomes necessary to name names because people have broken bbo rules, the abuse process is there.

jillybean2

FWIW – the ruling in this thread is NOT one of my bad rulings!

[Walddk]

jillybean2, on Apr 12 2005, 09:03 AM, said:

FWIW – the ruling in this thread is NOT one of my bad rulings!

Out of curiosity, and no offence intended, what do you base your rulings upon, Kathryn? The Law and TD guidelines or a feeling about what is fair and not fair?

Roland

[jillybean]

Walddk, on Apr 12 2005, 08:17 AM, said:

jillybean2, on Apr 12 2005, 09:03 AM, said:

FWIW – the ruling in this thread is NOT one of my bad rulings!

Out of curiosity, and no offence intended, what do you base your rulings upon, Kathryn? The Law and TD guidelines or a feeling about what is fair and not fair?

Roland

More & more on the rules as I learn them, if I don't know I ask.

What I meant when I said this is not one of my bad rulings was that this was not my tournament, not one of the bad rulings I'm sure I make ....sigh.

[DrTodd13]

Thanks hrothgar for the info on those flowcharts. We should definitely make those available via BBO so directors can make good rulings.

I've said this before and I'll say it again for all those TDs out there.

IF YOU HOST A TOURNAMENT, IT IS ASSUMED IT IS RUN UNDER THE WORLDWIDE LAWS OF BRIDGE!!!!!!!


If you as a TD want to remain totally oblivious of the rules of bridge and ignore these flowcharts then YOU MUST state in your tournament description that the laws of bridge do not apply and that you will make whatever judgement you like based on whatever criteria strikes your fancy at the moment.

I have no problem if you tell people you plan to be a rules dictator but my problem is when people join expecting to get bridge and instead they get willful ignorance of the laws.

I think some gentle nudging from Fred could be useful here. Perhaps a periodic mailing to all TDs reminding them of their responsibilities and the latest features that make living up to those responsibilities easier. Even better, add a window that pops up whenever you host a tournament that asks you to what degree you know the laws and plan on enforcing them. Make it so that tournament hosts cannot avoid this question and display the answer to the question in the tournament listing. Then, we'll still need a mechanism to correct people when they believe they know the laws but they really don't but that is another matter. At least this would allow people to have a better idea of what they are getting.

[cherdano]

DrTodd, I disagree. The tournaments don't come with an announcement that they enforce WBF laws etc. And in fact your big letters show that you know what to expect.

I think for what you are looking for, you should pay the $1 to participate in an ACBL tourney or similar.

Still, I think providing those flow charts would be useful.

Why am I participating so much in this thread? Because I am siding with the volunteers, from which some people are expecting things these volunteers never promised.

Arend

[DrTodd13]

Cherdano,

If you sit down to play bridge at someone's home, a regular table on BBO, or a tournament, what are the rules? If you go to a regular table on BBO and the opponents start talking about what cards are in their hand, do you get upset? If your answer is "yes," then ask yourself "why?" This table didn't advertise that they follow the WBF laws so why should they be held to the WBF bridge rule that no communication about the hand should be made outside the context of the auction? The simple fact is that we must all assume that some set of rules are in place absent a statement to the contrary. The only set of laws that we have are The Laws of Duplicate Contract Bridge. You cannot arbitrarily assume that a certain subset of these laws are in force but the rest are not because 1) no one knows which laws you think are necessary and which ones aren't and 2) people will disagree with you about which are necessary. When I join a tournament, I assume that all the laws of duplicate bridge are in effect and I assume that the director will enforce those laws. Everyone else should be making the same assumption. Cherdano...to believe as you do opens up bridge to a world of chaos. No one would know what rules were in effect. Even if we made the default belief to be "WBF rules are NOT in effect" and made people explicitly say when they were in effect then we're still in bad shape because then every table that doesn't say that is effectively playing without any rules. You can't have a game without rules and you can't expect people to magically agree on which parts of the rules of bridge are going to be used and which ones aren't.

[DrTodd13]

And one more thing, this whole "burden" thing is ridiculous! How much of an effort is it for an uneducated TD to say "Laws of Duplicate Bridge not in effect for this tournament"?

Todd

[guggie]

1. The dutch bridgesite is running tournaments with certified TD's. They have one tournament in three weeks, on average.
2. Even if I was a certified TD, it is very difficult to do some good ruling whilst running the tournament, you have to check te bidding, the different ways to paly out a hand, review previous hands of the players to see how good or bad they play to estimate the way they should play the hand and so on and so on. meanwhile you have to sub a few, hush some flamed up ego's, notice the time.
3. Rulings differ around the world. The ACBL rules are very strict and unfair in my european eyes, and their rules about conventions and psyches - well lets say i do not like them;-) OK i do not play in ACBL tourneys, no big deal. But i cannot and will not rule my tournaments according to their rules.

[luke warm]

all todd is saying is, put that in your conditions of contest, or in your tourney description.. it isn't hard at all... just type "no rules of recognized bodies, such as the acbl or wbf, will be observed during this tourney except for those i choose to observe at times of my choosing"

[Echognome]

I personally don't like the idea that someone has to post a "scarlet letter" warning whenever they make a tournament. I certainly do understand the problem of having TD's that do not know the laws, but need I remind everyone that this can happen down at the local club too?

The tournaments are plentiful, so people have choices as to which tournaments they want to participate in. If I personally entered a tournament that I paid for, then I would expect that the laws be upheld to the fullest. If not, I would not play in a tournament for that TD again. If I was playing in a free tournament and thought the TD was horrible, again I wouldn't play in one of that person's tournaments. I have the option of setting that person as enemy and identifying them to myself and if I desire my friends.

However, why should I care if other people want to play some game that is not exactly bridge, if they enjoy it? If they are not enjoying it, why are so many LOL directors still around? I don't think I've heard any more complaints on this forum about directors than I have about some of the rulings at my local club. We cannot compare online bridge with even club level bridge, because at the club you expect that the TD's at least learned (at one point) the laws of bridge.

That being said, I think Hrothgar brings a different point to the table. Offering a guide or aid to directors if they desire help would be a nice option for them. I don't believe forcing it upon them is right though. I don't imagine I could tell my local TD, "Go back and get the rules book and then we'll talk." I don't think it would get me very far.

[DrTodd13]

Why do you want to have to suffer through a tournament with a director who doesn't know the rules when they can just say upfront that they don't know them. I don't care if hundreds of such tournaments are hosted a day or if people love them. All I want is an easy way to avoid them without having to have previously suffered through an incident with a director who doesn't know the rules. If people like such tournaments, it wouldn't be a "scarlet letter" but would be an attraction.

At the local club, the director may make mistakes but at least they try to follow the rules and I can at least appeal the decision.

[helene_t]

I would be very surprised if somebody voluntarily anounced that the laws of duplicate bridge do not apply in his/her tournament. I would expect that all TDs do their best and that they will be willing to learn if told by someone they respect as an authority that they made a mistake. Also, I think if someone was forced to announce that he/she is an incompetent TD, he would stop directing. And in the hypothetic event that such a thing was announced, I would start wondering (OK, I'm paranoid, I know) if such a statement would atract players who think they can benefit from bad ruling, or that some players would call the TD even when they knew they were not dammaged.

Once I was dammaged by an illegal ruling from a BBO TD. I posted the case on this forum and everybody agreed with me. So I asked the TD to read the thread. The TD did so and appologized and promised to take measures to prevent it from happening again. Case closed. There was no need to disclose the name of the TD.

Maybe it would not be unreasonable to state in the tournament description that the TD is not certified. But I suppose most TDs are not, so those who are certified could say so. Then again, certified TDs make horrible mistakes, too.

[Walddk]

helene_t, on Apr 13 2005, 03:48 AM, said:

Then again, certified TDs make horrible mistakes, too.

I don't agree. Cetified TDs may make poor bridge related judgements, because they are not expert players, but they do not make horrible mistakes as far as the laws are concerned.

At major championships or other big tournaments the TDs rulings are almost always upheld by the appeals committee. The TD knows exactly which laws to refer to for his/her ruling, and he/she, in bridge related matters, would often have conferred with expert players for their judgement before a ruling is made.

Very few TDs are top players, but less is fine, as long as they remember to ask more competent players if judgement is relevant for the ruling.

Roland