[Walddk]

As responder you hold

♠ Q86
♥ KJ853
♦ 104
♣ Q84

The bidding goes

1♣ - 1♥
1♠ - ??

What is your bid now? Since I don't know how to get the vote option (maybe someone will enlighten me), I will give you 5 bids to choose from this way:

1: Pass

2. 1NT

3. 2♣

4. 2♥

5. 2♠

Which do you choose and why? Does it make a difference for you if opener has shown an unbalanced hand? Some bypass a major to show 12-14 balanced, so 1♠ should be unbalanced if that is your agreement. If you don't have that agreement, opener could be 4333 or the like.

Roland

[whereagles]

Yes it makes a difference. If opener has shown a 54, then 2C stands out. Otherwise I 1NT is the book bid. Not ideal because of diam weakness, but it's the lesser evil. At least I think so. I sympatize with the book bid, but there are alternatives to it, depending on personal style.

[Walddk]

Walddk, on Mar 31 2005, 04:26 AM, said:

Since I don't know how to get the vote option ....

I do now! I will thank myself for finding out. Gosh, I learned something today

Roland

[oldgun]

i think 2♠ should make

pass will lose game if pd have unbalance hand and good hcps

[helene_t]

I like the agreement that 1♠ shows at least four clubs, i.e. with a 4333 opener would bid 1NT. Then it becomes 2♣ at IMPs and 1NT at matchpoints.

[cherdano]

I think this depends. I play xyz with the (not automatic) implication that 1♠ is almost forcing, so pass is not an option. The 1♠ rebid shows at least 4-4 in the black suits for me, as 4333 hands bid NT at the first opportunity; but it doesn't promise 5-4, so no 2♣. I don't like 2♠ at IMPs at all, as I don't have tools to steer away from the 4-3 fit in case partner is a strong hand and wants to play game, so I would bid 1NT. At MPs, I like 2♠ because I wouldn't be suprised to take one more trick in spades than in NT if partner passes.

@Roland: To get the vote options, click "New Poll" instead of "New Topic".

Arend

[the hog]

Since in any sensible partnership opener has shown 5C and 4S, is not 2C a totally obvious bid? What's that you say? Opener didn't show 5C and 4S. Well then sorry, I can't help you.

[luke warm]

helene_t, on Mar 31 2005, 03:42 AM, said:

I like the agreement that 1♠ shows at least four clubs, i.e. with a 4333 opener would bid 1NT. Then it becomes 2♣ at IMPs and 1NT at matchpoints.

i play that in this sequence 1C shows 5, not 4, clubs *unless* opener is 4441... so after 1c : any : 1s, i always play him for 4/5 in the black suits.. imo it makes life simpler

[cherdano]

The_Hog, on Mar 31 2005, 11:52 AM, said:

Since in any sensible partnership opener has shown 5C and 4S, is not 2C a totally obvious bid? What's that you say? Opener didn't show 5C and 4S. Well then sorry, I can't help you.

Do you really think your arguments are soo weak that you need to use this tone?

[Walddk]

The_Hog, on Mar 31 2005, 06:52 AM, said:

Since in any sensible partnership opener has shown 5C and 4S, is not 2C a totally obvious bid? What's that you say? Opener didn't show 5C and 4S. Well then sorry, I can't help you.

I think you have a know-all and degrading attitude (not for the first time I read in other threads). As far as I recall, you even apologised for being cocky.

You are entitled to your opinion, but it's not acceptable to claim that "in any sensible partnership opener has shown 5C and 4S". It is perfectly legitimate to play this as showing no more than 3-4, or 4-4 if you play 4-card majors. That is also sensible whether you like it or not.

"Well then sorry, I can't help you". That's ok, but what is your point of contributing to this thread I wonder. Say something constructive, or say nothing at all!

Roland

[the hog]

" It is perfectly legitimate to play this as showing no more than 3-4"

No its not! In fact I would go further and to say that to bid this way stamps you as a beginner. There is one exception - you are playing Polish Club.

Furthermore Roland, your point is illogical, because playing 4 card Majors you would open the 4 card M, so what is this 4-4 point? With 4C and 4S a wnt player will either open 1NT or open the M and rebid NT.

[helene_t]

luke warm, on Mar 31 2005, 01:53 PM, said:

I play that in this sequence 1C shows 5, not 4, clubs *unless* opener is 4441

I don't think opener could be 4144. With a singleton hearts he would have opened 1♦ (maybe not with ♣AKQJ and ♦5432 but usually).

[Walddk]

The_Hog, on Mar 31 2005, 07:10 AM, said:

" It is perfectly legitimate to play this as showing no more than 3-4"

No its not! In fact I would go further and to say that to bid this way stamps you as a beginner. There is one exception - you are playing Polish Club.

Furthermore Roland, your point is illogical, because playing 4 card Majors you would open the 4 card M, so what is this 4-4 point? With 4C and 4S a wnt player will either open 1NT or open the M and rebid NT.

Ladies and gentlemen. The Hog has just shown that he has a monopoly of the truth, so the rest of us might just as well go packing. If we don't play it "The Hog way", we are beginners. The world's new oracle. The Hog has the only right answer to all aspects of bridge.

In case The Hog didn't know, it is also perfectly legitimate, and even quite common, to bid 4-card suits up the line if you play 4-card majors. We do not have to play Acol anno 1957 if we think that there is something better at hand.

I repeat: Your attitude is degrading and contemptuous. How pitiful.

Roland

[helene_t]

Ron, if your point is that it's suboptimal to play this:
1♣ is either 12-14 bal, 18-19 bal, 12+ 4414, or natural
1♣-1♥ could easily be 5-37, 44 majors
then I happen to agree with you. However, I think everyone on this forum is familiar with the arguments so it doesn't get us further simply to state that it's silly. Besides, it's what you are more or less forced to play with many pick-up partners at BBO. And under the conditions given, I don't think it would be completely silly to rebid 1♠ on certain ballanced hands.
If I'm wrong, please explain why I'm wrong.

[inquiry]

Ron (the_hog) is toughed skin, but let's tone down the arguements. We can disagree without getting personal about it.

I will NOT rebid 2C, as I play that as xyz. Tis hand isn't worth the nebulous game try 2C. I will not rebid 2H as partner tends to support with three cards. So for me, my chioice is between 1NT and 2S. The doubleton diamonds and the three spades to an honor push me towards 2S.

I can, should I want, get out (or try to get out) in 3C with a 2NT bid here, which I play as a transfer to 3C.

Sometimes, conventions llike xyz hurt you. I think the right bid here is probably 2C if that shows clubs and modest values.

Ben

[the hog]

"In case The Hog didn't know, it is also perfectly legitimate, and even quite common, to bid 4-card suits up the line if you play 4-card majors. We do not have to play Acol anno 1957 if we think that there is something better at hand"

Roland you are talking absolute nonsense and if you think about it you will agree.

If you play a weak NT system - all 4333 4432 shapes in the 12-14 range are opened 1NT. This is basic. Yes? (Even many 5332's)

If you play a 4 card M strong NT system, you open the Major and you rebid NT to show 12-14. This is also basic, else why play 4 card majors, except for their pre emptive value?. I would have thought that after having done so many vue graphs you would be familiar with these basic concepts.

I would also have thought that you are aware that most good players treat balanced hands as such and strive to bid NTs with balanced distibutions. Apart from the Poles I know of no decent player who opens 1C on a 4333 and rebids 1S over 1red suit, apart from the already mentioned Poles. (And even then playing Matula's version of PC the correct bid is 1H, but did you know that?)

Perhaps instead of making fatuous comments you might like to include some examples of expert bidding in the future to illustrate your points.

[Walddk]

The_Hog, on Mar 31 2005, 07:50 AM, said:

"In case The Hog didn't know, it is also perfectly legitimate, and even quite common, to bid 4-card suits up the line if you play 4-card majors. We do not have to play Acol anno 1957 if we think that there is something better at hand"

Roland you are talking absolute nonsense and if you think about it you will agree.

If you play a weak NT system - all 4333 4432 shapes in the 12-14 range are opened 1NT. This is basic. Yes? (Even many 5332's)

If you play a 4 card M strong NT system, you open the Major and you rebid NT to show 12-14. This is also basic, else why play 4 card majors, except for their pre emptive value?. I would have thought that after having done so many vue graphs you would be familiar with these basic concepts.

I would also have thought that you are aware that most good players treat balanced hands as such and strive to bid NTs with balanced distibutions. Apart from the Poles I know of no decent player who opens 1C on a 4333 and rebids 1S over 1red suit, apart from the already mentioned Poles. (And even then playing Matula's version of PC the correct bid is 1H, but did you know that?)

Perhaps instead of making fatuous comments you might like to include some examples of expert bidding in the future to illustrate your points.

I do not agree, and I don't need you to tell me that I am beginner if I don't play it your way.

With some partners, Peter Lund (senior European champion) is one of them, I bid 4-card suits up the line even if I play a strong NT (which we do vulnerable). Let me tell you this once and for all:

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. You are too, but that does not give you the right to say: "In fact I would go further and to say that to bid this way stamps you as a beginner", which you did in a previous post.

Vote for 2♣ if you wish, but don't stamp the rest as beginners if they do not.

It's contemptuous. As Arend (cherdano) pointed out: I don't like your tone. Does it really take that much to speak in a civilised manner?

Roland

[the hog]

"I do not agree, and I don't need you to tell me that I am beginner if I don't play it your way."

Note Roland - I did NOT say YOU were a beginner. I said anyone who bids 1S on a 4333 hand would be labeled as a beginner. Do NOT put words into my mouth!

If you wish to quote authorities - with Dilks, (ask Nicola Smith/Gardener if you don't know), the 1S bid is atrocious!

[Walddk]

The_Hog, on Mar 31 2005, 08:20 AM, said:

"I do not agree, and I don't need you to tell me that I am beginner if I don't play it your way."

Note Roland - I did NOT say YOU were a beginner. I said anyone who bids 1S on a 4333 hand would be labeled as a beginner. Do NOT put words into my mouth!

If you wish to quote authorities - with Dilks, (ask Nicola Smith/Gardener if you don't know), the 1S bid is atrocious!

With some partners (Peter Lund for instance) my 1♠ rebid can indeed be 4333, so I am a beginner after all. I do not put words in your mouth. You do label me as a beginner if I do.

Excuse me, but that says a lot more about you than about me. You may disagree all you like, but I don't think it's fair to label me as a beginner.

Roland

[whereagles]

The_Hog, on Mar 31 2005, 01:20 PM, said:

I said anyone who bids 1S on a 4333 hand would be labeled as a beginner.

Then the french team who won the 1997 bermuda bowl (vs meckwell, mind you) should be labeled as "beginners"