[cherdano]

inquiry, on Mar 31 2005, 01:45 PM, said:

Ron (the_hog) is toughed skin, but let's tone down the arguements.  We can disagree without getting personal about it.

In this case, I cannot. I don't disagree with The_Hog about his bridge arguments (or maybe I do, but it's not my point); not even so much about his know-it-all style, but about his negative attitude towards other posters (sometimes even first-time posters). This is a personal issue, and an issue that I feel the need to discuss.

But I have said enough about this, I believe.

Arend

[the hog]

I already made the exception re PC, Majeure cinqe escaped me, but it is really poor, regardless of what Chemla says.

[whereagles]

You know what? I don't agree with Chemla as well.. lol. I prefer play it as 5-4. The difference is I see Chemla's point and respect it. (Actually it's probably not Chemla but Roudinesco or Soulet.)

[joker_gib]

whereagles, on Mar 31 2005, 08:26 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 31 2005, 01:20 PM, said:

I said anyone who bids 1S on a 4333 hand would be labeled as a beginner.

Then the french team who won the 1997 bermuda bowl (vs meckwell, mind you) should be labeled as "beginners"

100000 persons in France and probably 5000 in Belgium are beginners because they rebid 1♠ !

I also learn something today, Roland ! LOL, LOL

[Walddk]

I think it's fine to bypass a major in order to show a balanced hand, and I do that with other partners. Not that this methods doesn't have a downside too: missing a major partscore when responder is weak.

I don't have strong feelings towards either. I am happy to play whatever partners prefers. In other words: I am flexible. I am not sure that word exits in the Hog's vocabulary.

There is only one thing that bothers me at this point. People who don't rebid 1NT with 4333 are beginners, except the Poles and French. Are you quite sure that you can't find quite capable players elsewhere who do exactly the same (1♠ rebid)?

And if you don't think you can find any, does that necessarily mean that you are right and others are wrong, and that they don't exist?

According to The Hog, people who don't bid a major before a minor in a 4-card major system are also wrong. How come that all the world's great players don't play the same methods as you then? Are they beginners, or could it be that they know a little more about bridge than you?


Roland

[Walddk]

joker_gib, on Mar 31 2005, 08:48 AM, said:

100000 persons in France and probably 5000 in Belgium are beginners because they rebid 1♠ !

And what about the 50,000 in Poland, 100,000 in the Netherlands, 30,000 in Denmark, 20,000 in Sweden, 22,000 in Norway etc. etc. etc.

The Hog really should give all of them his phone number so that he can explain and convince them that they are all hopeless cases. The calls won't take long:

"Beginners", is the only word the Hog needs to say.

Roland

P.S. Now I only need the Hog to wish me luck in the next beginner's tourney I am going to play in, on May 22 in Scotland. My team-mates are Mike Lawrence, Andrew McIntosh, David Bahkshi, John Armstrong and Iain Sime. It can't be easy for them to have a beginner like me in the team.

[Echognome]

Let me give a hand and see how this fits into the discussion:

♠ AJxx
♥ Qx
♦ Kxx
♣ AJxx

This is your hand playing weak no-trump and without the ♦K playing a strong no-trump.

Here, I am told I should open 1♠ and rebid NT at the cheapest level. In Acol, I'd be forced to open 1♣ and have a choice of rebidding 1♠ or 1NT. The major downside to opening 1♠ is if partner bids 1NT. I cannot bid 2♣ (else show 5-4) and inviting to 2NT might put us too high.

In the strong no-trump case, it's even worse. Suppose I don't have the ♦K? Now if it goes 1♣ - 1♥ - 1NT and partner passes (as he would with the hand given), they will take the first 4 (likely 5) diamond tricks, the heart ace and likely a black K, for one down, rather than making a partscore in clubs, hearts, or spades.

But perhaps I'm making an error in judgment here?

[Chamaco]

Quote

What is your bid now?

I voted 2H.

Quote

Does it make a difference for you if opener has shown an unbalanced hand? Some bypass a major to show 12-14 balanced, so 1♠ should be unbalanced if that is your agreement.

That's my agreement: if opener was balanced, he would have bid 1NT even holding a 4c Major.

Quote

Which do you choose and why?

I play that
- 2S here should guarantee 4 card support. I could live with 2S holding a singleton, but the hand seems too balanced to me;
- 1NT should promise a stopper; if NT is an option, I want pard to receive the lead
- I am not happy of 2H rebid but if pard can reopen, we might find a better spot.
- I play XYZ, so 2C and 2D would be artificial, 2H and 2S natural, 2NT = slammish 2suiter H+C, 3C = signoff with long clubs (usually longer coubs than H), other jumps = slammish 1/s suiters

[Chamaco]

Walddk, on Mar 31 2005, 01:56 PM, said:

I think it's fine to bypass a major in order to show a balanced hand, and I do that with other partners. Not that this methods doesn't have a downside too: missing a major partscore when responder is weak.

Agree.
There are occasional wrong partscores, although some pairs (eg Meckwell I believe) prefer to use 2M jump responses to 1C/1D openes to show 54/55 hand types in the majors, exactly to avoid missing those partscores (and yes, this is also a price to pay, you lose the jumpshift for other hand types)

[P_Marlowe]

1 NT.

If the 1S promises an unbalanced hand, but not necessarily 5-4,
a 2S bids gets more attractive, I prefer the major to the minor.
but I dont like raising with 3 trumps, probably labeling me as
an beginner .
But the major argument: playing the 4-3 may be cumbersome,
if they start playing hearts through my hand, forcing partner to
ruff, and most of the time we will have the majority of HCP,
especially if partner does not open crap regular.,
so that playing to get 7 tricks should be easier, than playing to
get 8 tricks.

Addionaly Partner is still free to bid 2C, if he has concentrated
values and 5-4 in the black suits.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pclayton]

Heh - I don't mind strong opinions on BBF, especially from someone like Ron - one of 6-7 whose advice that I actually value.

As for the problem, 1S for me is a near force. The choices are 2C (IMPS) and 2S (MPs).

You can play 2N as a checkback in 1x - 1y -1z - 2z very similar to the Ogust ask in 1x -1y -2y, as a matter of fact I play it.

However, I don't agree that 1S promises an unbalanced hand, although I play it myself. Standard 2/1 is NOT to bypass spades after 1H, contrasted to 1C - 1D where responder will skip D's with a minimum hand. If responder has a minimim 4-4 with h's and s's, the spades can get buried.

[mikestar]

2C is a standout if natural. It doesn't matter to me if he might be balanced--if he's got four clubs we're fine, if he bid 1S on 4333 he will correct to 2H. Not saying that this would be the best method for him to use, but we can cope with it.

Playing XYZ it's a difficult decision between 2S and 1N. Pass is wrong because game isn't excluded and 2H will get you into a 5-1 fit when partner is unbalanced.

Now swap the minors and make this a Precision sequence and passing 1S looks just fine.

[Rebound]

The_Hog, on Mar 31 2005, 08:10 AM, said:

No its not! In fact I would go further and to say that to bid this way stamps you as a beginner. There is one exception - you are playing Polish Club.

I'm dissapointed that even the better players seem to think that bidding methods are a method of determining the skill of the player. I'm used to seeing this with weaker players... Oh! You play precision? You must be really good.... I believe the reason that precision was recently banned from a certain tourney I play in was due to that sort of thinking.

Treatments, bidding style, it's all as individual as the player. It has nothing to do with playing ability. I don't think it marks me as a beginner if I don't play xyz or anaemic pre-empts or drury or a thousand other conventions and treatments. I simply don't bypass a 4CM to bid NT. Keeps things simple.

My call is 2♣. With 4-3-3-3 partner will bid 2♥.

[pclayton]

Rebound, on Mar 31 2005, 09:44 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 31 2005, 08:10 AM, said:

No its not! In fact I would go further and to say that to bid this way stamps you as a beginner. There is one exception - you are playing Polish Club.

I'm dissapointed that even the better players seem to think that bidding methods are a method of determining the skill of the player. I'm used to seeing this with weaker players... <snip>

I agree, except I'll make exceptions for:

----> Point count responses to 2♣
----> Western Q (always)
----> 4♣ is ALWAYS Gerber
----> 4N is ALWAYS blackwood

[inquiry]

Rebound, on Mar 31 2005, 01:44 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 31 2005, 08:10 AM, said:

No its not! In fact I would go further and to say that to bid this way stamps you as a beginner. There is one exception - you are playing Polish Club.

I'm dissapointed that even the better players seem to think that bidding methods are a method of determining the skill of the player. I'm used to seeing this with weaker players... Oh! You play precision? You must be really good.... I believe the reason that precision was recently banned from a certain tourney I play in was due to that sort of thinking.

Treatments, bidding style, it's all as individual as the player. It has nothing to do with playing ability. I don't think it marks me as a beginner if I don't play xyz or anaemic pre-empts or drury or a thousand other conventions and treatments. I simply don't bypass a 4CM to bid NT. Keeps things simple.

My call is 2♣. With 4-3-3-3 partner will bid 2♥.

This 2H slow preference by your partner to avoid the 3-3 heart fit is hardly a cure-all. What if your partner (when you bid 1S) was... 0-4-5-4? Now you are still in a 4-3 fit, to make matters worse, you as opener ahve biid three suits, you sound like your 4-3-1-5 (or at the very least 4-3-2-4). Visions of game on minimum hcp will dance in his hand, with your ruffing diamonds, and he spades. What if your partner is 1-4-3-5, now you are going to get to 3C instead of 2C.

While there in no bid that works right all the time, and there are multiple ways to bid a hand. Each has advantages and disadvantages. The 1NT response with "balanced hands" simplifies the auction in way that I like, by accurately describing my hcp and "shape" (balanced). For those of you (like me), who believe shape first, the 1S rebid as "unbalanced" does in fact describe shape (4S and unbalanced) better than the 1S bid that just describe "4S" basically any shape that can not raise hearts directly. The 1NT rebid has the added benefit of describe hcp range too... So for me, the bid that makes sense is 1NT with balanced hand. See my longer post on the voting poll on this topic.

[Elianna]

My partners will raise on 3 card heart support when minimal, even when holding four spades, so at most, partner can have 6 major suit cards.

Also, in our methods, partner could still have a fairly balanced hand (4-2-3-4), and if diamonds are 4-4, or even 5-3, NT is still doing fine. If partner is fairly unbalanced, he is likely to correct to 2c. I may be corrected about this point by partner later!

[Fluffy]

joker_gib, on Mar 31 2005, 01:48 PM, said:

whereagles, on Mar 31 2005, 08:26 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 31 2005, 01:20 PM, said:

I said anyone who bids 1S on a 4333 hand would be labeled as a beginner.

Then the french team who won the 1997 bermuda bowl (vs meckwell, mind you) should be labeled as "beginners"

100000 persons in France and probably 5000 in Belgium are beginners because they rebid 1♠ !

I also learn something today, Roland ! LOL, LOL

You are also forgeting spain again, in Spain we also play french 5 card mayor based systems, and will rebid 1♠ with any 4♠ hand. And we are very happy about it.

Sorry Ron, I am not with you on this one .

[mike777]

Jlall, on Mar 31 2005, 02:59 PM, said:

First my views on this:

with 4333 rebid 1N always
with 4324 or 4234 rebid 1S usually.

So I will bid 2C.

2S

If I understand the discussion so far in a strong nt context:
1) Most do not play 2c as some sort of checkback?
2) If opener is 4333 and responder is weak with exactly 44 in majors we play 1nt since opener will rebid 1nt not 1s? I can see where this could give declarer the advantage of a hidden suit in the play of the hand at 1nt. Does this advantage offset the lose of playing in 44 major?
3) I assume this rebid of 1nt with 4333 means we are also playing reverse flannery and do not need to worry about weak 4s5h hands with responder.

[Rebound]

inquiry, on Mar 31 2005, 02:03 PM, said:

Rebound, on Mar 31 2005, 01:44 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 31 2005, 08:10 AM, said:

No its not! In fact I would go further and to say that to bid this way stamps you as a beginner. There is one exception - you are playing Polish Club.

I'm dissapointed that even the better players seem to think that bidding methods are a method of determining the skill of the player. I'm used to seeing this with weaker players... Oh! You play precision? You must be really good.... I believe the reason that precision was recently banned from a certain tourney I play in was due to that sort of thinking.

Treatments, bidding style, it's all as individual as the player. It has nothing to do with playing ability. I don't think it marks me as a beginner if I don't play xyz or anaemic pre-empts or drury or a thousand other conventions and treatments. I simply don't bypass a 4CM to bid NT. Keeps things simple.

My call is 2♣. With 4-3-3-3 partner will bid 2♥.

This 2H slow preference by your partner to avoid the 3-3 heart fit is hardly a cure-all. What if your partner (when you bid 1S) was... 0-4-5-4? Now you are still in a 4-3 fit, to make matters worse, you as opener ahve biid three suits, you sound like your 4-3-1-5 (or at the very least 4-3-2-4). Visions of game on minimum hcp will dance in his hand, with your ruffing diamonds, and he spades. What if your partner is 1-4-3-5, now you are going to get to 3C instead of 2C.

While there in no bid that works right all the time, and there are multiple ways to bid a hand. Each has advantages and disadvantages. The 1NT response with "balanced hands" simplifies the auction in way that I like, by accurately describing my hcp and "shape" (balanced). For those of you (like me), who believe shape first, the 1S rebid as "unbalanced" does in fact describe shape (4S and unbalanced) better than the 1S bid that just describe "4S" basically any shape that can not raise hearts directly. The 1NT rebid has the added benefit of describe hcp range too... So for me, the bid that makes sense is 1NT with balanced hand. See my longer post on the voting poll on this topic.

Fair enough. You can't have everything, so ya gotta pick something based on your methods. But as Fred pointed out in another thread, disagreeing doesn't make a particular treatment right or wrong. Granting that some methods may be "sub-optimal", I think that that regardless, if they work for your partnership, then they are, by definition, playable.