[mike777]

Looking for comments and results from players regarding very frequent off shape 1nt 14-16 or 15-17.


In this case off shape is much more than just 5332 but could be 2254 or 4225 etc with one 4 card major and a 5 card minor or 2236 with long minor, etc. I assume 5224 with 5 major and 4 minor is not playable.

Do you think this is very poor style?
Do you insist on HCP in short suits or anything goes?
If poor often, do you see any advantage to playing it?

Yes, I did read Zeke's article trashing 5332 openings.


Thank you in advance.

[Walddk]

I don't see 5332 as off shape. To me and most others I believe this is one of the three patterns for a balanced hand, 4333 and 4432 being the other two.

Any 5422 (not 54 in the majors) and 6322 with a 6-card minor are off shape notrump openings. I think you should avoid them if you have any excuse whatsoever. I do concede, however, that certain 5422 hands are best opened 1NT. 2245 with 16 for example, but only with honours in both doubletons.

There is no need to open 1NT on a 2254 hand. 1♦ followed by 2♣ looks normal and better to me. The problem is the 15-16 counts with longer clubs than diamonds, not strong enough to reverse. Example:

♠ Q4
♥ A5
♦ KJ94
♣ AQxxx

This is not a reverse after 1♣ - 1MA. Now 1NT is perhaps the least of evils.

♠ K5
♥ AQ74
♦ K10974
♣ QJ

And this is not a reverse after 1♦ - 1♠. But with this hand it would not be a major crime to rebid diamonds.

As a general rule I think you should only open 1NT when you are in your range with 4333, 4432 and 5332. But then again, no rule without exceptions.

Finally, we could retreat to the eternal discussion about whether you should have a 5-card major or not. Let's leave that subject for another occasion.

Roland

[the hog]

mike777, on Apr 4 2005, 01:36 PM, said:

Looking for comments and results from players regarding very frequent off shape 1nt 14-16 or 15-17.


In this case off shape is much more than just 5332 but could be 2254 or 4225 etc with one 4 card major and a 5 card minor or 2236 with long minor, etc. I assume 5224 with 5 major and 4 minor is not playable.

Do you think this is very poor style?
Do you insist on HCP in short suits or anything goes?
If poor often, do you see any advantage to playing it?

Yes, I did read Zeke's article trashing 5332 openings.


Thank you in advance.

Who is Zeke, Mike, and where was this article?

Ron

[mike777]

Zeke Jabbour, April 2005 ACBL Monthly Bridge Bulletin.
1NT with 5 card major.

This thread is meant to discuss more extreme offshape, ala Roland's and Justin's posts.

[cherdano]

I think opening 1NT with hands like ♠KT9x ♥Kx ♦Kx ♣AQT8x is pretty much the field action (you really really want LHO on lead). Other than with such extreme examples, or with some of the "rebid problem hands", I try to avoid it.

Arend

[whereagles]

I don't have any problems in opening 1NT on

- 6m322 or 7m222 for that matter
- 5M322
- Any 5422, except 54 majors
- 4441, though I prefer a singleton A K or Q
- 5431(!!) if the singleton is AKQ and not 5M

Whether or not I open 1NT will depend on the table situation, which is often a better guideline to what to open than technical considerations.

[Walddk]

cherdano, on Apr 4 2005, 02:46 AM, said:

I think opening 1NT with hands like ♠KT9x ♥Kx ♦Kx ♣AQT8x is pretty much the field action (you really really want LHO on lead). Other than with such extreme examples, or with some of the "rebid problem hands", I try to avoid it.

Arend

Why open 1NT on a hand you can describe easily? Especially if you play 1♣ - 1red ; 1♠ as unbalanced. Off shape NT's should only be used in situations where you can't show your hand conveniently.

With the hand you give us here I don't see a problem with opening 1♣.

Roland

[helene_t]

Agree with Whereagles. 5M332 is standard, opening 1M would be off-shape (but not necesarily bad). 6m322, 5m4♥22 and 5m4m22 is pretty standard too allthough not mandatory.

[cherdano]

Walddk, on Apr 4 2005, 10:09 AM, said:

cherdano, on Apr 4 2005, 02:46 AM, said:

I think opening 1NT with hands like ♠KT9x ♥Kx ♦Kx ♣AQT8x is pretty much the field action (you really really want LHO on lead). Other than with such extreme examples, or with some of the "rebid problem hands", I try to avoid it.

Arend

Why open 1NT on a hand you can describe easily? Especially if you play 1♣ - 1red ; 1♠ as unbalanced. Off shape NT's should only be used in situations where you can't show your hand conveniently.

With the hand you give us here I don't see a problem with opening 1♣.

Roland

I didn't claim there was a problem with this hand. Just that the 4 tenaces made it so attractive to be declarer rather than dummy, that I would expect many to open this 1NT, and I would certainly do it.

Btw, it's not like this hand has no rebid problems either. What do you want to do after 1♣-1NT? Probably pass. What after 1♣-1♠? Probably 2♠. Neither of them seem to do justice to this 16 point hand, you will miss many 25 point games. I often find 16pointers a bit problematic to show in standard bidding -- unless you open 1NT.

A further point is that this hand is unlikely to run into problems after opening 1NT. Unlike the 5m4m22 hands, where you get into troubles when responders insists on playing in a major (see that other thread).

Arend

[Walddk]

cherdano, on Apr 4 2005, 04:28 AM, said:

Btw, it's not like this hand has no rebid problems either. What do you want to do after 1♣-1NT? Probably pass. What after 1♣-1♠? Probably 2♠. Neither of them seem to do justice to this 16 point hand, you will miss many 25 point games. I often find 16pointers a bit problematic to show in standard bidding -- unless you open 1NT.

Arend

I would bid 2NT over 1NT, but only because of the good intermediates, especially ♣10. 1NT tends to show some kind of club fit. Often 4.

Over 1♠ I have an easy 3♠ rebid. Doesn't that show 16-18, distributional points included? That's what I have. So no, I won't miss any games if I open 1♣, and I very much doubt that the majority would open 1NT with that hand.

Roland

[the hog]

Quote Walddk:
"Why open 1NT on a hand you can describe easily? Especially if you play 1♣ - 1red ; 1♠ as unbalanced."

Based on previous posts - rofl!

[Walddk]

The_Hog, on Apr 4 2005, 05:37 AM, said:

Quote Walddk:
"Why open 1NT on a hand you can describe easily? Especially if you play 1♣ - 1red ; 1♠ as unbalanced."

Based on previous posts - rofl!

If The Hog had read all my posts, he might stop laughing before all his laughter kills him.

In the thread "What is your rebid", I wrote (quote):

"I think it's fine to bypass a major in order to show a balanced hand, and I do that with other partners. Not that this method doesn't have a downside too: missing a major partscore when responder is weak".

As a consequence of the above, 1♣ - 1red ; 1♠ shows an unbalanced hand in my methods with these partners. I even pointed out that I'm flexible and can/will play what partner prefers.

The Hog on the other hand is not flexible. Only The Hog way is the truth to him. I don't think this has brought or will bring him any laurels at the table. But I could be wrong. Maybe he really has achieved something. I am dying to know.

Roland

[Gerben42]

Playing 14-16 I open some offshape hands with 1NT. We can find out these nonstandard distributions by relaying:

5♥332, 2=4=(5-2)

These hands have obvious rebid problems if partner responds 1♠ to your opening bid. With other hands I don't really bother.

[Fluffy]

Walddk, on Apr 4 2005, 09:09 AM, said:

Why open 1NT on a hand you can describe easily? Especially if you play 1♣ - 1red ; 1♠ as unbalanced. Off shape NT's should only be used in situations where you can't show your hand conveniently.

You don't need that 1♠ shows unbalanced to describe your hand:

1♣-1♥
1♠-1NT
2♠
2NT

are both 54 in the 15-17(18) range with one making more emphasis on playing a suit contrract if possible.

[hotShot]

Fluffy, on Apr 4 2005, 11:33 AM, said:

Walddk, on Apr 4 2005, 09:09 AM, said:

Why open 1NT on a hand you can describe easily? Especially if you play 1♣ - 1red ; 1♠ as unbalanced. Off shape NT's should only be used in situations where you can't show your hand conveniently.

You don't need that 1♠ shows unbalanced to describe your hand:

1♣-1♥
1♠-1NT
2♠
2NT

are both 54 in the 15-17(18) range with one making more emphasis on playing a suit contrract if possible.

This is excactly the bidding that i don't want to have with this hand.
Remember: ♠KT9x ♥Kx ♦Kx ♣AQT8x
I hold 3 K's and my partner is playing ...

There are lots of hand with that shape that i would never think of opening 1NT, but in this case, it is good choice.

[Fluffy]

Didn't say you shouldn't open 1NT when you have to, jsut that walsh after 1♥ won't make a difference here.

[pbleighton]

I open 5m422 1NT routinely, except that I will open in the minor if the 4 card suit is spades, as long as the suits are reasonable.

I open 6m322 1NT with scattered values only.

I open 5M422 1NT only if the suits are both bad, and the 4 is a minor.

Peter

[han]

Reference for the non-ACBL members: in his article in the ACBL bridge bulletin, Zeke Jabbour considered the issue of opening 1NT or 1M with 5332 shape. He came to the conclusion that it is almost always right to open 1S, and most often right to open 1H instead of 1NT. He didn't treat this subject as deeply as we have here in the BBO-forums.

As for me, I play that opening 1NT is mandatory with any 5332 shape, and with any 2425 with 4 hearts and a five-card minor. With 4 spades and a 5-card minor it is optional and depends on the holdings in the short suits, among others.

I sometimes open 1NT with a 6+ minor, but not often. I would only open 1NT with 2-2 in the majors if I am specifically 2-2-4-5. I have never opened 1NT with a 5-card major and a 4-card minor, but I think that it may be right to do so on some hands (and I know others do, see earlier thread in this forum).