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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#7841 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-November-03, 21:47

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-November-03, 21:30, said:

Here is a quote from the Steele dossier:



Here is what the New York Times reported today:



Doesn't look like Steele is such fake news anymore.


Ah, yes, the Steele dossier. Paid for by the DNC and Clinton campaign, to acquire information from the Russians in order to influence the 2016 election. So we have, at least, indirect collusion between the Clinton campaign and the Russians. Ironic, isn't it?
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#7842 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-November-03, 22:57

Fact check: 1) Papadopoulos was working for the Trump campaign when he met with Russians and tried to arrange meetings between Trump and Putin. He lied to the FBI and pled guilty. 2) Carter Page was working for the Trump campaign in July 2016 when he traveled to Moscow and met with Russian government officials. Page e-mailed the Trump campaign letting them know he had met with these Russians. 3) The Steele dossier is confirmed in part.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#7843 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-November-04, 00:35

"the Russians"
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#7844 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-November-04, 06:58

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-November-03, 18:46, said:

Third Fact check: 1) Bernie Sanders is an independent. 2) Donald Trump is a registered Republican.

All else is spin.


This got me thinking. During the primaries candidates are asked many questions Was Sanders ever asked "Are you or are you not a Democrat"". This is not like asking someone if he is a Communist. A guy is attempting,to become the presidential nominee of the Democratic Party, he has not previously run as a Democrat, so it seems reasonable to ask him if he is a Democrat. Was he never asked this? I think quite a few people, including me, did not really regard him as a Democrat. Probably he wasn't and isn't.

Eisenhower's connection to the Republican Party was not all that strong, and ditto for Trump but when they ran they declared themselves as Republicans. Strom Thurmond left the Dems to become a Dixiecrat, Teddy Roosevelt became a Bull Moose, but then they no longer sought the nomination within the party that they left.

I have been trying to think of any case where a person has become the nominee of political party X while denying that s/he is a member of political party X. It's true that Sanders did not become the nominee but he came close. Even that may be unprecedented. A person denies being an X but almost becomes the presidential nominee of party X. Can you think of any other example?


Now what is Sanders? "Independent" seems to be more a statement of what he isn't than what he is. I had not much paid any attention to him until he tried to become the Democratic nominee. I guess he described himself as a Democratic Socialist. Sometimes this was modified to Socialist Democrat, a distinction that seemed to be very important to some people. See https://www.forbes.c...y/#40c58f15272d
I'll take his word for it that the distinction is important.

One more thought. If a guy is not a Democrat, I can well understand that the power people within the Democratic party would not be enthusiastic about having him be the nominee from their party. Of course they still have to follow the rules, or at least they should follow the rules, but their lack of enthusiasm for having a non-Democrat as the Democratic nominee is hardly a surprise.
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#7845 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-November-04, 08:46

View Postkenberg, on 2017-November-04, 06:58, said:

This got me thinking. During the primaries candidates are asked many questions Was Sanders ever asked "Are you or are you not a Democrat"". This is not like asking someone if he is a Communist. A guy is attempting,to become the presidential nominee of the Democratic Party, he has not previously run as a Democrat, so it seems reasonable to ask him if he is a Democrat. Was he never asked this? I think quite a few people, including me, did not really regard him as a Democrat. Probably he wasn't and isn't.

Eisenhower's connection to the Republican Party was not all that strong, and ditto for Trump but when they ran they declared themselves as Republicans. Strom Thurmond left the Dems to become a Dixiecrat, Teddy Roosevelt became a Bull Moose, but then they no longer sought the nomination within the party that they left.

I have been trying to think of any case where a person has become the nominee of political party X while denying that s/he is a member of political party X. It's true that Sanders did not become the nominee but he came close. Even that may be unprecedented. A person denies being an X but almost becomes the presidential nominee of party X. Can you think of any other example?


Now what is Sanders? "Independent" seems to be more a statement of what he isn't than what he is. I had not much paid any attention to him until he tried to become the Democratic nominee. I guess he described himself as a Democratic Socialist. Sometimes this was modified to Socialist Democrat, a distinction that seemed to be very important to some people. See https://www.forbes.c...y/#40c58f15272d
I'll take his word for it that the distinction is important.

One more thought. If a guy is not a Democrat, I can well understand that the power people within the Democratic party would not be enthusiastic about having him be the nominee from their party. Of course they still have to follow the rules, or at least they should follow the rules, but their lack of enthusiasm for having a non-Democrat as the Democratic nominee is hardly a surprise.


Bernie Sanders describes himself as a democratic socialist, but it might be better described as shared capitalism. I don't know of any political party that represents his views. My interest in presidential races began with Kennedy, so I've never seen anything other than Democrat/Republican races. The fact that Trump won and is changing the party and Bernie came so close to winning shows how out-of-touch with constituents were both parties.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#7846 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-November-04, 09:59

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-November-04, 08:46, said:

Bernie Sanders describes himself as a democratic socialist, but it might be better described as shared capitalism. I don't know of any political party that represents his views. My interest in presidential races began with Kennedy, so I've never seen anything other than Democrat/Republican races. The fact that Trump won and is changing the party and Bernie came so close to winning shows how out-of-touch with constituents were both parties.


Trump seems to be very much in touch with a sizable portion of Republicans, much to my regret. I do think the Democratic Party is substantially out of touch with many traditional Democrats. I often think of writing to the leaders and asking them whether they do or do ot want old white guys such as myself in the party. If they do, they often have a strange way of showing it.
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#7847 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-November-04, 11:45

View Postkenberg, on 2017-November-04, 09:59, said:

Trump seems to be very much in touch with a sizable portion of Republicans, much to my regret. I do think the Democratic Party is substantially out of touch with many traditional Democrats. I often think of writing to the leaders and asking them whether they do or do ot want old white guys such as myself in the party. If they do, they often have a strange way of showing it.


The biggest surprise to me is not the election results (I was aware of Clinton hatred) but that the Republican party seems to have morphed into the party of Trump - losing many traditional Republicans along the way.

At the same time, the neo-liberals, such as Bill and Hillary Clinton, long ago abandoned their traditional base of union workers by not preparing them for the transition into and competition from a world economy and labor system.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#7848 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2017-November-05, 08:11

From What if Mueller proves his case and it doesn’t matter? by David Roberts at Vox:

Quote

As Ezra Klein laid out, there is enough on the record now to make it at the very least highly probable that there was collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, meant to affect the outcome of the election.

... What happens if nothing happens?

Mainstream scholars do not think that Trump will be able to get away with simply ignoring Mueller’s findings or pardoning everyone involved. As Andy Wright, a law professor at Savannah Law School, put it, “with each abnormal, unbecoming, or dishonorable act, President Trump makes it harder for his appointees to defend him, harder for traditional Republicans to maintain their uneasy power alliance with him, and easier for Democrats to take the moral high ground and secure political advantage."

But if there’s one thing non-experts like me have learned over the last few decades of watching US politics, it’s that experts are frequently caught flat-footed by the growing intensity of partisanship and the destruction of norms it has wrought.

They are operating based on certain assumptions that it simply doesn’t occur to them that a politician can ignore. But politicians can. Mitch McConnell can simply refuse to hold a vote on a Supreme Court nominee. There’s no explicit rule or law that says he can’t, so he can, and he did.

That one shocked and flabbergasted experts too, but just like all the other perverse steps down this road to illiberal lawlessness, they eventually took it on board and normalized it.

Now they’re sure Donald Trump can’t simply brazen his way out of an indictment. What if they’re wrong about that?

Say he pardons everyone. People will argue on cable TV about whether he should have. One side will say up, the other will say down. Trump may have done this, but what about when Obama did that? What about Hillary’s emails? Whatabout this, whatabout that, whatabout whatabout whatabout?

There is no longer any settling such arguments. The only way to settle any argument is for both sides to be committed, at least to some degree, to shared standards of evidence and accuracy, and to place a measure of shared trust in institutions meant to vouchsafe evidence and accuracy. Without that basic agreement, without common arbiters, there can be no end to dispute.

If one side rejects the epistemic authority of society’s core institutions and practices, there’s just nothing left to be done. Truth cannot speak for itself, like the voice of God from above. It can only speak through human institutions and practices.

The subject of climate change offers a crystalline example here. If climate science does its thing, checks and rechecks its work, and then the Republican Party simply refuses to accept it ... what then?

That’s what US elites are truly afraid to confront: What if facts and persuasion just don’t matter anymore?

As long as conservatives can do something — steal an election, gerrymander crazy districts to maximize GOP advantage, use the filibuster as a routine tool of opposition, launch congressional investigations as political attacks, hold the debt ceiling hostage, repress voting among minorities, withhold a confirmation vote on a Supreme Court nominee, defend a known fraud and sexual predator who has likely colluded with a foreign government to gain the presidency — they will do it, knowing they’ll be backed by a relentlessly on-message media apparatus.

And if that’s true, if the very preconditions of science and journalism as commonly understood have been eroded, then all that’s left is a raw contest of power.

Donald Trump has the power to hold on to the presidency, as long as elected Republicans, cowed by the conservative base, support him. That is true almost regardless of what he’s done or what’s proven by Mueller. As long as he has that power, he will exercise it. That’s what recent history seems to show.

Democrats do not currently have the numbers to stop him. They can’t do it without some help from Republicans. And Republicans seem incapable, not only of acting on what Mueller knows, but of even coming to know it.

Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe US institutions have more life in them than I think. But at this point, it’s just very difficult to imagine anything that could bridge the epistemic gulf between America’s tribes. We are split in two, living in different worlds, with different stories and facts shaping our lives. We no longer learn or know things together, as a country, so we can no longer act together, as a country.

So we may just have to live with a president indicted for collusion with a foreign power.

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#7849 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-November-05, 08:53

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-November-03, 15:35, said:

https://www.realclea...etaliation.html
I agree 100% with those sentiments.

Agreed. So what's the likelihood of Congress presenting campaign finance reform bills in 2018? Hmmm, I say remote.

Can we honestly expect a broken system that helps the politicians and incumbents at the expense of the citizenry to repair itself?

Money and politics are a deadly cocktail.
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#7850 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-November-05, 09:22

View PostRedSpawn, on 2017-November-05, 08:53, said:

Agreed. So what's the likelihood of Congress presenting campaign finance reform bills in 2018? Hmmm, I say remote.

Can we honestly expect a broken system that helps the politicians and incumbents at the expense of the citizenry to repair itself?

Money and politics are a deadly cocktail.


The history of the Supreme Court is not encouraging - Citizen's United among that history of bizarre rulings.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#7851 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-November-05, 09:46

View Posty66, on 2017-November-05, 08:11, said:

From What if Mueller proves his case and it doesn’t matter? by David Roberts at Vox:


Four rare steaks please, and hurry.


The only solution as I can see it is for rational people to take power and hold it until the irrational die out over time.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#7852 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-November-05, 10:43

View Posty66, on 2017-November-05, 08:11, said:

From What if Mueller proves his case and it doesn’t matter? by David Roberts at Vox:


Four rare steaks please, and hurry.


This does a decent job of describing where we are. It is, perhaps, a little more forgiving of Democratic stupidity than I am inclined to be. Part of the Andy Wright quote:
" easier for Democrats to take the moral high ground and secure political advantage." Uh huh. Taking political advantage and taking the moral high ground might at times be aligned objectives but often they are not.. It would be good if he had indicated, with examples, what the priority should be when we cannot have both. Hint: Praising a book on the campaign written by someone who tried to funnel debate questions to Hillary is not a choice I favor. It also does not in any way help the reputation of the party.

All politicians, as they tell it, act in the best interests of the country. Nobody gets up and says "Elect me, I plan to screw the country". If we are going to get out of this mess we have to support those who can make partisanship a natural but not a totally dominant part of political life. The plain fact is that only the voters can bring this about. Will we? Some years back I realized that I am optimistic about my personal life and pretty pessimistic about the future of the country. Our current president has not made me feel better.
Ken
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#7853 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-November-05, 12:45

And now we have even more Russian connections that were denied or were not disclosed.

Quote

Wilbur Ross, the commerce secretary in the Trump administration, shares business interests with Vladimir Putin’s immediate family, and he failed to clearly disclose those interests when he was being confirmed for his cabinet position.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#7854 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-November-05, 13:37

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-November-02, 15:02, said:


Oddly, the fact that you won't look simply because he is not of your "tribe" is pretty much what he describes.



"Tribe"? That's right in line with all the other characterizations you make about those who disagree with you as stupid, irrational, etc. I'm surprised you haven't used the term "untermenschen" as yet because what you're peddling is just a variation on the Master Race theme.
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#7855 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-November-05, 13:48

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-November-05, 09:46, said:

The only solution as I can see it is for rational people to take power and hold it until the irrational die out over time.


Is that your version of democracy? Sounds like totalitarianism to me. Yes, those "rational" people would be in charge of the government and tell everyone else how to live their lives and make all the decisions. Wasn't that tried by Lenin and his cronies from 1917 to 1989 in the Soviet Union? They sure helped those "irrational" people die out over time to the number of millions of citizens.
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#7856 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-November-05, 14:12

Quote

Say he pardons everyone. People will argue on cable TV about whether he should have. One side will say up, the other will say down. Trump may have done this, but what about when Obama did that? What about Hillary’s emails? Whatabout this, whatabout that, whatabout whatabout whatabout?

Fortunately, here in the BBF watercooler we are in a better place, no one here would bring up such silly arguments.
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#7857 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-November-05, 14:35

View Postrmnka447, on 2017-November-05, 13:48, said:

Is that your version of democracy? Sounds like totalitarianism to me. Yes, those "rational" people would be in charge of the government and tell everyone else how to live their lives and make all the decisions. Wasn't that tried by Lenin and his cronies from 1917 to 1989 in the Soviet Union? They sure helped those "irrational" people die out over time to the number of millions of citizens.


Fact check: the Republicans are in power in the U.S. Congress, executive branch, Supreme Court, and a majority of state legislatures.

All occurring democratically.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#7858 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-November-05, 14:37

View Postrmnka447, on 2017-November-05, 13:37, said:

"Tribe"? That's right in line with all the other characterizations you make about those who disagree with you as stupid, irrational, etc. I'm surprised you haven't used the term "untermenschen" as yet because what you're peddling is just a variation on the Master Race theme.


I use "tribe" because I'm talking about tribalism. Do you have a better word? What do you call people who band together and place that bond as superior to other factors?
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#7859 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2017-November-05, 16:06

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-November-05, 14:37, said:

I use "tribe" because I'm talking about tribalism. Do you have a better word? What do you call people who band together and place that bond as superior to other factors?

Groupthinkers?
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#7860 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-November-05, 17:01

Tribalism is more than groupthink. It is an evolutionary development. It is not of itself a derogatory term. It is only a drawback when we can't admit to our own tribal inclinations and overcome them with cognition.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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