[mike777]

KQ9XX=JXX=AX=9XX

Imps

1C=1S
2D=?

WHAT IS YOUR BID IF PLAYING?
1) lebensohl, please explain
2) No agreements (pick up)
3) Your agreements

[pclayton]

2♠.

My partner and I define it as "neutral", just showing 5+ spades and not promising a rebid.

Its forcing of course.

Why would you ever want to play exactly 2♠ on this auction?

This post has been edited by pclayton: 2005-March-23, 11:25

[inquiry]

mike777, on Mar 23 2005, 11:39 AM, said:

KQ9XX=JXX=AX=9XX

Imps

1C=1S
2D=?

First, I do not play reverse as game force. What I will not bid here is 2♠ regardless of what else I do in any of the conditions you state.

WHAT IS YOUR BID IF PLAYING?
1) lebensohl, please explain

I would bid 2♥ fourth suit, forcing. To see what partner had in mind with his reverse. An alternative is a forcing 3♣ (setting trumps). The advantage to 2♥ is if your partner has a minimum and a heart stopper, you might get to 3NT. 3♣ probably sets sail for 5♣ or more (or slam in spades if your partner's 2♦ can include spade support).

2) No agreements (pick up)

No agreement, is tough, but I guess I would bid 2♥ anyway. This new suit has to be forcing, but partner has no clue perhapst that this doesn't promise hearts.

3) Your agreements

The way I play this reverse is a little different. Partner can have any one of the following three hands. 1) true reverse, 2) a balanced 17-19 hcp, 3) a one suited club hand with 8.5 to 9 tricks in clubs.

I have very specific agreements here..

• 2♠ five card or more, weak. Partner will pass 2♠ with virtually all the balanced 17-19 point hands. Exception for 19 with strong three card support and ruffing value, and some 18 point hands with good five card club suit and ruffing value tool.
  
• 2♥ shows some values, 1 round force, partner rebids 3♣ with the one suited club hand, 2NT with the balanced 17-19, and 3♦ with the true reverse hand. In addition, 2♠ shows the 17-19 hand with good three card support.
  
• 2NT is transfer to 3♣ either attempt to signoff or game invite in ♦, or club fit with five spades
  
• 3♣ is transfer to 3♦, either attempt to sign off in diamonds (my partner may not have diamonds for his reverse) or a hand with diamonds and five good spades
  
• 3♦ transfer to 3♥, shows 5-5 or better in the majors, forcing (I play reverse flannery by responder so he can not be 5S and 4+ hearts weak for 1S response)
  
• 3♥ transfer to 3♠ shows six plus spades, forcing to game. Opener of course can bid 3NT instead of complete transfer
  
• 3♠ shows willingness to play 3NT from opener's side (transfer to 3NT). Thought is four hearts to QJTx five spades, no great minor fit
  
• 3NT similar hand to 3♠, but desire to protect stuff in hearts from opening lead

[Free]

Unless you have special agreements, is there any other bid than 2♥???

[pclayton]

For me, 2♥ specifically denies 5♠'s, so thats not an option.

2♥ should be reserved for hands that have no good bid; QJxx, Axx, Qxx, xxx / AQxx, Kxx, xxxx, xx or the like.

[microcap]

The infamous Rex and I have had hours of arguments on this topic. Reverses are a bear. My personal preference is close to Ben, as i think the 2♠ rebid should be used as a warning that my hand stinks but I have spades. In this day and age, you could have J10xxxx xxx x xxx. So I hate the vague idea that 2♠ has to be F1 and could be a million different hands. Rex and I like a treatment called Lebensohl over reverses at http://www.prairiene...dge/rev-leb.htm Good luck! There are no perfect answers to reverses IMO

[mike777]

Ok, assume opener rebids 3clubs.

Now what?

Are all bids now forcing to game?

[pclayton]

Playing Lebensohl, 2H, not 2N is the prelude-to-a-signoff. At least that's been SOP the last 10 years or so.

After a 'neutral' 2S, the only technically forcing call is 3H, although perhaps 3D should be as well.

You can have whatever agreement you want, but responder's 3rd bid after the 2S should be an effort to reach the best strain and not constructive, except 3H I guess.

[luke warm]

1) 2S forcing
2) 2H
3) 2S forcing

after:

1C=1S
2D=2S
3C

i would bid 3H, asking... if pard bid 3S or 4m, i bid 5C

[flytoox]

mike777, on Mar 23 2005, 10:47 PM, said:

Ok, assume opener rebids 3clubs.

Now what?

Are all bids now forcing to game?

3C is passable, so any bid from responder is gf. If pd rebid 3C, I will bid 3H, asking for half stopper.

[joker_gib]

1) 2♥
2) 2♥
3) 2♥

[Fluffy]

2♥
2♥
2♥

also

And I play 2♠ forcing but I never rebid 5 card suits opposite a 2 suiter. It's partner's task to support us with 2/3 cards.

[helene_t]

Just wondering what the correct bid would be if we play New Suit Invitational (all (or "all") less-than-GF hands via 2♥, if I understand it correctly).

[pclayton]

New Suit Invitational as it has been decribed doesn't apply to reverse auctions.

So it does have a name!

[helene_t]

Why not? With Lebensohl we can't play 2♠ and 3NT may get wrong-sided.

[han]

Excellent question Helene!

I didn't think about how "New Suit Invitational" would work in the context of reverses. Since opener has already shown a good hand, the term "invitational" should probably be used to show a hand that is forcing to game but that does not have slam interest.

Perhaps it should be playing in conjunction with 2NT-Lebensohl:

2H: either a drop in spades or some values (but no slam interest unless opener is huge). Opener will usually bid 2S. Then responder passes or makes any natural and forcing bid.
2S: natural, forcing.
2NT: drop in a minor.
3-level: natural, slam interest!

I don't play this, but it might be ok.

[han]

Now that I have described what I don't play, let me give an answer to the question that was originally posted.

I play a similar structure as Ben (where 2D is either natural and strong, 17-19 balanced or some other freaky hand). My responses are:

2H: artificial catch-all, up to 11 HCP. Opener describes his hand.
2S: bad hand, 5+ spades.
2NT: either a drop in clubs or diamonds or invitational values with 6+ spades.
3-level: natural, at least 11 good points.

I'd have an easy 2H bid. If partner bids 2S (17+ support points, 3-card support) I would probably just bid 4S. If partner bids 2NT (he usually does) then I transfer into spades to show 5 and bid 3NT. If partner bids 3C (forcing, may or may not have side diamonds, denies 3 spades) then I would have to check what exactly I had in my hand, I forgot!

Regarding question 2: I try not to play without agreements, I don't like it. I always discuss reverses when playing f2f with someone for the first time. If this happened with a pick-up partner when playing online then I would ask my partner if he plays Lebensohl here (not in a tourny of course). If the opponents tell me that this is not allowed then I know that I am at the wrong table. I wonder how other people feel about this practice?

[inquiry]

Hannie, on Mar 24 2005, 05:24 PM, said:

I play a similar structure as Ben (where 2D is either natural and strong, 17-19 balanced .... (snip)

2S: bad hand, 5+ spades.

Yes, I play this 2S as bad hand 5+ spades. The point with my new minor force (either 1D-1S-2C or like here 1C-1S-2D) is that it is OFTEN a balanced 17-19 count. I use 2S to say, I would like to play 2S if you have a generic balanced 17-19 count. Of course some 18=19 counts with strong 3 card fit are too good to accept 2S as the final resting spot and a 3S game try will still be forthcoming.

I did play 2NT as lebehnsol for a long time with weak Diamonds or weak clubs, but I have found the need to change this. The reason being partner often didn't have one of the minors he was bidding. My "other freak" in a strong one suit hand (The first minor bid). So you can't bid 2NT planning on getting out in a 4-4 diamond fit as your partner might well not have diamonds.

Thus, I rolled 2NT into a tranfer to 3C (and if clubs were opened) eihter weak with clubs, or some club-spade two suiters forcing. I made the 3C bid be the weak signoff in diamonds (always weak), such that if partner had the minor one suiter (clubs) he can pass. So while 2NT can include some good hands and is forcing, 3C transfer to 3D is always weak and partner can pass 3C!!! The diamond suit here is also always real, and generally long.

If 3C was diamonds, what would 3D be? This is still open to speculation as what is best, what I am currently using is given above.

Something else to note. Playing this way, 2H is NOT GAME FORCE... Responder is sometimes stuck with a 2H bid to await opener to show his hand.

The system I play 1C/1D an not include any of the following hands....
A one suiter iwth 9.5 tricks (I open multi 2D)
A two suiter with four losers generally wtih 5 controls or more (I open 3C/3D or 3H)
A three suiter with 15+hcp, 5+ controls, and five losers or less (Open 2C)
Any balanced hand 20+ hcp (open 2NT/multi 2D/or 2C)

For the new minor forcing, I also can not have any strong hand with four card support and any modestly strong hand with three card support and a nice six card minor.

So these opening bids, and these hand removed by nature of the initial rebid that is not the other minor greatly limits what kind of hand opener needs to describe.

As for the question about being at the wrong table... yes, if your opponents in a pick up game opposite a new partnership is that "strict", you are at the wrong table. Come to mine... you will not have that problem.

[mike777]

P hand was:

X=XX=KQJ9=AKQTXX

4C WAS LIMIT ON HAND