[jillybean]

Dummy prompts partner to claim, opps (all advanced) accept claim and then request penalty against declarer.

Claim was made at trick 4; there was a clear line for the contract to make.

How should I rule?

Would the ruling be different if opps had rejected the claim or stopped play?

fwiw - I cannot find table talk guidelines in BBO rules of the site.

tyia
jillybean

[Walddk]

It is obviously none of dummy's business to make a claim on declarer's behalf. In real life bridge dummy has a few rights, including conditional rights (claiming is not one of them), but they do not exist in online bridge.

In Law 43 it is clearly stated that dummy is not allowed to see the opponents' cards. Consequently, dummy can never claim, which is a good thing. On the internet and on BBO, at least in the Main Bridge Club, dummy can see all 4 hands if he/she wants. That is ok, but it is certainly not ok if he/she makes any comments, including "claim partner".

In your case, if the claim was good and the opponents agreed, I would give dummy a warning, tell him/her about the law and ask him/her not to do it again. I would then let the table result stand.

It would have been a different story if there had been any chance that declarer did not have the rest under certain circumstances. In that case the score should be adjusted to the best possible result for the non-offending side.

We have all seen "claim partner" hundreds of times on BBO. That doesn't make it any better. It's not only a bad habit, but it's also against the laws of bridge.

Roland

[Brandal]

jillybean2, on Mar 23 2005, 12:57 AM, said:

Dummy prompts partner to claim, opps (all advanced) accept claim and then request penalty against declarer.

Claim was made at trick 4; there was a clear line for the contract to make.

How should I rule?

Would the ruling be different if opps had rejected the claim or stopped play?

fwiw - I cannot find table talk guidelines in BBO rules of the site.

tyia
jillybean

Dummy should never claim,sometimes (maybe always)
it's easier to see how to play when dummy.

In a BBO tourney my pd was in 6S:

Kxxxx
KQJ9x
x
AJ

AQJ10
-
AKxxxx
xxx

My LHO had bid H and C and the lead was a small H.

It was imps and instantly I thought "pitch a club on lead,
let them get for the H ace and claim asap"

My pd ruffs,and proceeds down a line of play with ruffing
hearts and diamonds finally going 2 down.

What seemed obvious to me,did not seem obvious to my
pd,even tho I think there is a very clear line to make this
contract,some get lost.

[Walddk]

Brandal, on Mar 23 2005, 05:34 AM, said:

What seemed obvious to me,did not seem obvious to my
pd,even tho I think there is a very clear line to make this
contract,some get lost.

Excellent point, nothing more to add. Dummy simply does not claim, ever!

Roland

[sceptic]

nice one jilly, what I have experienced mostly is the higher the standard a player is the more inclined they are to ask p to claim and they are the ones that should know better.

this goes back to a previous post where I try to explain all my mistakes away as people on line do not seem to have much patience , hence I do not make mistakes everyone else is rushing me

Claiming online it would seem has a lot of advocates in favour of dummy claiming all the time.

I have also been guilty of not quite being able to see the ending, but claiming after p has told me to, for fear of offending an impatient pard.........so all in all turn off pards facility to kib opps hands (permenantly, do not allow the option), if people want to see all 4 hands let them kib, do not allow them to play, exception teaching tables

[luis]

I think I agree a lot with Roland's comments. The biggest problem when dummy says "claim pd" is what happens when dummy DOESN'T say "claim pd" then declarer can inferr that the hand is not laydown and for example make plans to win against bad splits. So I think that even if the hand is very cold if dummy says "claim pd" he should be penalized in a very very severe way.
I'd rule the hand to be down 1 declarer can always forget about a trump or misscount his tricks and based on misscounting take a losing line.
Then I'd rule a procedural penalty of about 5imps to the offending side, if it was MPs maybe 2% of the scoring.
Finally dummy must be instructed not to do that again and a note must be taken if he repeats the incorrection he should be suspended.

Luis.

[inquiry]

French have it right. Dummy is "le mort"... he should not make comments about play upto and including "claim parnter" even if partner has all trumps left and no trumps are out (no matter how maddening it is to see someone not claim then).

Ben

[bestguru]

Good point Luis.

I also think that "claim p" is insulting to your partner. I have to concede that I used to do this. I think that players like myself that learn to play bridge online tend to spend more time researching and practicing technique than laws and etiquette. My impression is that there is not much emphasis on law and ettiquette in online bridge material, but it is possible that I overlooked a lot in my excitement about playing.

A somewhat related question:
In a competitive auction you make a bid that you think is merely competitive and partner jumps to game, interpreting it as stronger. Is it improper to say "sry p" when the dummy comes down? I simply meant this as sorry I mislead you in the bidding and did not think it was unethical. I can see the case that when you have the option to see all four hands opps might think you mean "This is going down bad, sorry p"

I will second sceptic's motion. Seeing all four hands departs from the normal rules of bridge and opens up lots of room for unethical behaviour. It is also a disservice to those who are trying to learn the game.

[Walddk]

bestguru, on Mar 23 2005, 09:39 AM, said:

Seeing all four hands departs from the normal rules of bridge and opens up lots of room for unethical behaviour. It is also a disservice to those who are trying to learn the game.

Don't forget that you always have the option not to see more than 1 hand. Kibitz North, Kibitz East, Kibitz South, Kibitz West, Show all hands, and finally Kibitz partner when dummy.

Simply click on yourself and tick the appropriate box.

Roland

[jillybean]

Thanks for the replies.

I understand it is against the rules to prompt partner to claim, what made this a grey area for me was opps accepted claim and then requested penalty.
Should this be treated any differently to a claim which has been rejected and play stopped? I perhaps mislead when I said there was a clear line to make contract, thats true as double dummy but who knows what declarer would do. As Walddk suggests I should penalise the offending pair.

Should the contract be 100% certain (no possible combination of cards played by declarer will lose the contract) and all other cases be penalised?

luis, on Mar 23 2005, 07:10 AM, said:

I'd rule the hand to be down 1 declarer can always forget about a trump or misscount his tricks and based on misscounting take a losing line.

Then I'd rule a procedural penalty of about 5imps to the offending side, if it was MPs maybe 2% of the scoring.
Finally dummy must be instructed not to do that again and a note must be taken if he repeats the incorrection he should be suspended.

Luis.

I can adjust board - 1, I can't impose a procedural penalty of 5imp or 2% maybe thats something the program (Uday ) could be set up to do?

Later on in the same tournament I had a case of a defender prompting their partner to play a certain suit. When I tried to determine what had happened, one defender did not reply at all, the other claimed 'no speak english' though apparently had spoken at the table before.
This is where the TD needs to be able to scroll back in tournament table chat, it would clear up many grey areas.
In this case I adjusted board A- for the offending pair, A= for the declarer.

[sceptic]

Quote

Don't forget that you always have the option not to see more than 1 hand. Kibitz North, Kibitz East, Kibitz South, Kibitz West, Show all hands, and finally Kibitz partner when dummy.

I disagree slightly in the fact that, you can't control ur pards options and they are the ones that can usually play the hand faultlessly when they can see all 4 hands

[scoob]

i played a tournament just yesterday and was not able to see the opponent's hands while i was dummy - running a tourney where dummy can see opps hands strikes me as downright silly.

perhaps a small code update that allows tourney directors to prohibit dummy chat to table during card play?

[bestguru]

sceptic, on Mar 23 2005, 11:46 AM, said:

Quote

Don't forget that you always have the option not to see more than 1 hand. Kibitz North, Kibitz East, Kibitz South, Kibitz West, Show all hands, and finally Kibitz partner when dummy.

I disagree slightly in the fact that, you can't control ur pards options and they are the ones that can usually play the hand faultlessly when they can see all 4 hands

Exactly. I finally learned that I am better off not seeing all four and have it set that way. I think that if we have the ability to see all four hands it should not be the default.

[mike777]

Must admit, in non tourneys, I say this all the time. Find myself leaving more and more often in middle of hand, when as dummy after asking p to claim, they continue to play hand for 5 or more minutes. Seems many experts or advanced players prefer to click than play bridge. Even on defense these players refuse to claim and play out hand.

Reminds of story at Nat, many years ago, when I claimed on defense in TG. Opp called director on me saying they had been playing for over 20 years and never heard of one case of defense making a claim. Seems the same here on BBO where defense will ask declarer to claim rather than just claiming zero tricks themselves.

When I learned, many years ago, it was considered poor sportsmanship to not claim or refuse good claims. I can understand novices not seeing claims but these are advanced and expert players.

Even in 8 board TG I see one table 30 minutes behind other since people love to click rather than play bridge.

[inquiry]

mike777, on Mar 23 2005, 04:44 PM, said:

Must admit, in non tourneys, I say this all the time. Find myself leaving more and more often in middle of hand, when as dummy after asking p to claim, they continue to play hand for 5 or more minutes.

I am going to advise you to finish the hand and then leave rather than leave in the middle of a hand. The reason for this is two fold. First, it is against BBO policy to leave in the middle of the play of a hand. To do once or twice probably is no big deal. To do it "more and more" will eventually cause some problems.

Second, it is possible that someday the software will track people who leave in the middle of play, like it does now for people who abandon tournements. If that day comes (and I am not saying it will, but if), too many times leaving with cards to play may lead to automatic sanctions just like what happens in tourneys.

BTW, I wish everyone would claim as soon as possible... I like playing bridge too.. the more hands the better.

Ben

[rcbought]

When ever I am dummy I never even watch the play. I find it makes me less critical of my partner and if they want to go over something later i can watch the movie.