[luis]

3♥, if we are needing results I might try 3NT since it can be the right hand to try such a bid but I really prefer 3♥ as a very normal bid in most normal situations.
I don't think 2♥ is an option.

[inquiry]

This hand is problematic, as can seen by the above responses.

What I would respond, is quite different depending upon who I am playing with. I would respond 3♥ with most partners. The hand is just too good for a simple 2♥ bid.

However, playing with partners that use 2♣ as "drury"/NT/GF opposite a major opening (See Unloading 1NT forcing ), 3♥ goes right out the window. With these partners, 1NT DENIES three card support (direct raise or go through 2♣) and denies balanced type hand with good 10 hcp (go through 2♣ as well). With these partners, facing at most a doubleton heart, my desire to jump to3♥ has been greatly reduced. Here 2♥ is to be preferred. Partner will pass, bid a new suit with long weak junk, or occassionally raise to 3♥ to show doubleton and 9 to bad 10 hcp, or bid impossible 2♠ to show fair hand with at least one minor. I will have a good chance to compete correctly over each of these. And if partner passes? Well 2♥ is safer than 3♥ (playing unloaded 1NT forcing, there is ZERO chance of slam).

Ben

[han]

I also play 2C as drury or GF here, but I would still bid 3H, as it descibes my hand best, and game is still a lively possibility. (I also play that 3H shows about 14-16 HCP with 6+ good hearts, and no shortness, but I would have bid 3H anyway)

I think that Ron's comments in this thread are way off, and I also think that he doesn't understand his own English (Did you not say that game is excellent opposite Axx xx etc?). However, I do agree that 2H is a serious underbid, this is a very good hand.

[inquiry]

Hannie, on Mar 17 2005, 05:34 PM, said:

I also play 2C as drury or GF here, but I would still bid 3H, as it descibes my hand best, and game is still a lively possibility. (I also play that 3H shows about 14-16 HCP with 6+ good hearts, and no shortness, but I would have bid 3H anyway)

Since you use 2C as drury or GF, pull out the last 10 or 20 hands your partner responded 1NT with to 2♥ and see how they fair opposite this hand.

For me, what does 1H=1NT show?

For me, it denies 4♠ and 3♥, so partner is looking at most 5 major suit cards, and thus at least 8 minor suit cards.

For me, it denies the a fair balanced hand (so along with this 8 minor cards at a minimum, if he is balanced he has nine or less hcp.

Playing with Misho, here are some hands where we started 1H-1NT (thank goodness for Bridgebrowser where you can look for hands by partnership and specific auction)...
1. ♠xx ♥K ♦Qxxxxx ♣Axxx
2. ♠Txx ♥xx ♦AQJxx ♣xxx
3. ♠xxx ♥xx ♦Kxxx ♣Kxxx
4. ♠T82 ♥JT ♦QJxxxx ♣Kx
5. ♠xx ♥x ♦JT8xxx ♣QJxx
♠x ♥Qx ♦AJ85 ♣QJTxxx
♠QTx ♥xx ♦QT9xxx ♣Ax
♠xxx ♥x ♦Axxx ♣KQTxx (this one approaches my 2C then 2NT rebid in value)
♠AJx ♥x ♦xxxx ♣QJT9x
♠x ♥xx ♦Qxx ♣KJxxxxx

To see how each fits, you might have to change a chard here or there. The first one, swap heart king for the missing queen, giving you likely 6 heart tricks. Still with this change, how do you like a club lead (their longest and strongest suit?

The second one, you are of fthe entire club suit, and may have two clubs and three spade losers of the top, and you still have to avoid one more heart loser.

The third one you have two spades, and a club loser for sure, maybe another spade and antoher club, and somewhere between 0 and 3 heart losers.

The fourth one you can lose 2C, 3S, 1D and maybe a few hearts if all goes bad. If all goes well, 1C, 1D, 2S, and 0H

The fifth one, well.. you got the idea. When you unload forcing 1NT, the good hands your partner can have are gone away. On the sixth hand, misho raised my 2♥ rebid (I know he has at most 2 hearts)... so we sould get the after 2♥ rebid.

ben

[awm]

Seems like you can break down partner's hand into several categories:

(1) Partner has 10-12 hcp. You won't miss game regardless of opener's rebid, since partner will bid a game over 3♥ or 2NT and will invite a game (which opener accepts) over 2♥. There is some chance partner looks for slam holding a three-card limit raise opposite a 2NT or 3♥ rebid, and slam will not normally be there (barring a very unlikely minor suit singleton) but you can normally still come to rest in four or five hearts safely. Of course, if partner holds doubleton heart, a 2NT rebid by opener propels the partnership into 3NT when 4♥ may well be a better choice; on the other hand a 3♥ (or 2♥) rebid allows partner to look at his hand and make a decision as to which game is best; thus I'd rate a heart rebid as a bit better than notrump.

(2) Partner has 7-9 hcp and xx in hearts. In general we will need hearts to play for no losers in order to make a game here. We have 7.5 tricks in hand when the hearts behave and 6.5 when they don't (i.e. diamond ace, spade king counting half, and 5-6 heart tricks). Playing in hearts, partner will not provide 3 tricks with 7-9 hcp so even with the "right" hand we need hearts to behave. Playing in notrump, it is very likely that some suit is only single-stopped (since we have no club stopper in hand and only one stopper in each pointed suit). If the hearts don't run, opponents are not unlikely to produce 4 outside tricks to go with their heart trick. While one can produce a "perfect minimum" or two for partner, the vast majority of hands for partner will not produce a game when hearts fail to play for six tricks -- game is around 37.5% and 2NT or 3♥ rebids will normally get us there. The occasional "perfect minimum" that makes game even when hearts misbehave will be counterbalanced by the hands where we get to the "wrong" game and play an awful 4♥ with nine tricks and no play for ten, or a 3NT with no club stop off 5 tops. Seems like the 2♥ bid wins here.

(3) Partner has 7-9 hcp and x in hearts. Hearts are as likely to play for TWO losers as for ZERO (and usually for one loser). Most likely any game will be bad, and even 3♥ or 2NT is in serious jeopardy. Rebid of 2♥ wins here also.

(4) Partner has 7-9 hcp and Qx in heart. These hands will frequently make a game, although which game depends a lot on where partner's values are (opposite Axx Qx Kxxxx xxx, 3NT will make when clubs break or are not lead but 4♥ is basically on ice; on the other hand opposite Axx Qx xxxx Kxxx, 3NT is almost on ice whereas 4♥ is 50%). Bidding 3♥ or 2NT gets us to game, although again there's no guarantee to reach the best game. Bidding 2♥ might miss a game -- but I think with a prime nine count like the two example hands, and including Qx of heart, partner can risk a raise to 3♥ and get us to game. This is perhaps more clear playing a non-2/1 style (where 1nt limits the hand) but I think I'd raise to three on the examples given in parenthesis. On weaker hands where pass is more clear, game still might be missed but even the "right" game tends to be only around 50% opposite most such hands. So I think 2♥ loses here to the other bids, but not by as much as most people seem to be assuming.

(5) Partner has less than 7 points. We're not going to have a game and the lower partscore is likely to play better. Win for 2♥.

There are a few other less likely possibilities such as partner holding a heart void (now I REALLY hope I bid 2♥ and not three) or singleton queen of hearts (game is probably good, but getting to the right one could be an adventure, and funny things can happen if our diamond entry gets knocked out early in notrump).

In all I think 2♥ fairs better than most people are expecting. Ben's example hands seem to bear this out -- keeping in mind that the 3-card limit raise is not a hand where our rebid greatly matters (i.e. we're NOT missing game opposite that hand) I think his examples apply even without the "drury or GF" 2♣ convention.

[cherdano]

Hi Ben,

as awm already hinted at, I don't understand how your 2/1 structure makes a difference here. Sure, you have taken the invitational balanced hands, and the invitational 3-card support hands out of 1NT. But neither of them will be a problem, as partner will make a rebid, and we will go to game. You don't have the 3-card support, 5-7 points hand in there, either, but I don't suppose we want to be in game opposite those.

Arend

[cherdano]

Scoring: IMP

1♥-P-1NT-P
3♥-P-4♥-AP

---

I was kibitzing this hand, and while I thought I would have bid 3♥, too, I wondered whether this was a close decision. Opposite this particular North hand, which is an obvious game acceptance, game needs approximately hearts 3-2 and 3 out of 4 finesses (well, it's a little better I suppose).
3NT looks better, and I should have given 2NT as an option.

Arend

[flytoox]

cherdano, on Mar 17 2005, 11:48 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

1♥-P-1NT-P
3♥-P-4♥-AP

---

I was kibitzing this hand, and while I thought I would have bid 3♥, too, I wondered whether this was a close decision. Opposite this particular North hand, which is an obvious game acceptance, game needs approximately hearts 3-2 and 3 out of 4 finesses (well, it's a little better I suppose).
3NT looks better, and I should have given 2NT as an option.

Arend

Not really, you just need to get the trump right. You dont need to finesse minor suits. Just concede a diamond trick.

[the hog]

cherdano, on Mar 18 2005, 09:48 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

1♥-P-1NT-P
3♥-P-4♥-AP

---

I was kibitzing this hand, and while I thought I would have bid 3♥, too, I wondered whether this was a close decision. Opposite this particular North hand, which is an obvious game acceptance, game needs approximately hearts 3-2 and 3 out of 4 finesses (well, it's a little better I suppose).
3NT looks better, and I should have given 2NT as an option.

Arend

As a matter of interest, swop the E-W hands, Arend.
I think those opting for the pusillanimous 2H don't play many high level imp games. Yes 3N definitely has to be considered as an option and I guess a 2N rebid is a good way of getting there.

[cherdano]

flytoox, on Mar 18 2005, 12:05 AM, said:

cherdano, on Mar 17 2005, 11:48 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

1♥-P-1NT-P
3♥-P-4♥-AP

---

I was kibitzing this hand, and while I thought I would have bid 3♥, too, I wondered whether this was a close decision. Opposite this particular North hand, which is an obvious game acceptance, game needs approximately hearts 3-2 and 3 out of 4 finesses (well, it's a little better I suppose).
3NT looks better, and I should have given 2NT as an option.

Arend

Not really, you just need to get the trump right. You dont need to finesse minor suits. Just concede a diamond trick.

I am aware of this, but I dont think it is much better. On this particular deal, this won't work on a club lead. On a spade lead, it means you cannot get to dummy to take the heart finesse, or you cannot draw trumps before playing three rounds of diamonds (thus risking a trump promotion in spades, for example). If RHO has the ♦K, you are playing for both major suits to work according to plan.


Arend

[inquiry]

cherdano, on Mar 17 2005, 07:34 PM, said:

Hi Ben,

as awm already hinted at, I don't understand how your 2/1 structure makes a difference here. Sure, you have taken the invitational balanced hands, and the invitational 3-card support hands out of 1NT. But neither of them will be a problem, as partner will make a rebid, and we will go to game. You don't have the 3-card support, 5-7 points hand in there, either, but I don't suppose we want to be in game opposite those.

Arend

Hi Arend

Bear in mind my discussion above dealt with a very specific and highly unusual agreement i have with a few partners. With any average 2/1 GF partner, I would jump to 3♥.

How my structure makes a difference is simple. This hand has slam potential against some forcing 1NT responses (parnter with limit raise, partner with balanced good hand, etc). The way to convey this is a jump to 3♥ to get across the stregnth of your hand.

In addition, what awm glossed over with the logic for a 2♥ rebid is the simple fact that most 2/1 players with six hearts and an average to average plus stregnth will rebid 2♣ or 2♦ over forcing 1NT with the understanding that this two of a minor is almost never passed. Thus, a 2♥ rebid is usually made only with (for the lack of a better term), despirately weak hand. So some of those hands he described as no problem in fact are problems. Responder with balanced 10 or 11 might very well decide to pass 2♥. So there is a significant risk in bidding rebidding only 2♥ opposite a traditional forcing 1NT.

As for weak hand with three card heart support (your 5-7), I raise directly. Turns out the third heart is a wonderful card here, as it greatly increases your chance of running 6 heart tricks. The 3♥ bidders (over 1NT) are clearly hoping for a quick 3NT with 6 running hearts. But opposite two or less hearts, well, that is a despirate hope indeed.

Ben

[cherdano]

inquiry, on Mar 18 2005, 12:28 AM, said:

In addition, what awm glossed over with the logic for a 2♥ rebid is the simple fact that most 2/1 players with six hearts and an average to average plus stregnth will rebid 2♣ or 2♦ over forcing 1NT with the understanding that this two of a minor is almost never passed. Thus, a 2♥ rebid is usually made only with (for the lack of a better term), despirately weak hand. So some of those hands he described as no problem in fact are problems. Responder with balanced 10 or 11 might very well decide to pass 2♥. So there is a significant risk in bidding rebidding only 2♥ opposite a traditional forcing 1NT.

If you swap spades and clubs, would you consider bidding 2♣, then 3♥ over the likely 2♥ (playing standard 2/1, of course)? I think I would like this best.

Btw, I am not sure your 2♣ is that unusual, although when I have played it, it only contained GF balanced hands, whereas you seem to include balanced 11 points.

[awm]

Interesting points by Inquiry. I was acting under the assumption that the 2♥ rebid showed twelve to a bad fifteen with six good hearts -- as it is defined in the two-over-one book by Max Hardy, and that a "really bad" hand would open 2♥ to begin with. I was also under the impression that responder would bid on with 9+ to 12 hcp (also as defined in the Hardy book) and not pass the rebid with a ten-count.

Ben's explanation clears up a lot of things for me, although I'd personally prefer to play "old-fashioned" 2/1 as I am not a huge fan of rebidding suits on two small nor of opening super-light at the one level with a decent six-card major in my hand that I could preempt instead. Good to know what's considered "standard 2/1" these days though.

[Fluffy]

I Think what really makes the difference here is if you would open 1♥ with Kxx/KQ10xxx/Qxx/x or open weak 2 instead, if you are like me opening 1♥ you cannot bid the same this one as the given one, 5 HCP is too wid erange for a second bid.

[beatrix45]

Your hand is a rock with 3.5 quick tricks and a big potential source of tricks. The heart Q makes that suit a runner. 3H will cause partner to value it properly, if he has it. You would bid 2H with an average hand like:

Kxx
KJ9xxx
Ax
xx

and, you could be a lot worse.


Trixie