[tuppi]

Hi folks!

What is your favorite approach to/agreements on the meaning of a double of 4M opening (penalties, take-out, something else)? Could you please describe your approach in the following cases - what should the double mean/show and what kind of a hand should your partner have to pass/pull?

i) 4♠ - P - P - ?

ii) P - 4♠ - ?

iii) P - P - 4♠ - ?

Do vulnerabilities have effect on your definitions of the double? And finally - what if the preempt is 4♥?

BR,
Mika

[mike777]

For me takeout in all cases.
Pard tends to pull with more dist/shape

that means If I have long trumps I need to pass.

[apollo1201]

Agree. A strong take out with defence (usually 16+ although I would commit it with 4441 and 14 prime hcp with A and Ks if partner is not passed) that enables partner stand with balanced weakish hands for a reasonably expe ted set, and offer him reasonable chances to make if he pulls out with distributional hands (2 suited or 6+ suits). Could also be a 18+ hand with strong nt shape.
4HX tends to be left less often because patner can still play at the 4 level in spades, a suit which you strongly suggested when doubling.

[ggwhiz]

I agree with the caveat that partner is not allowed to "chicken" pull as a save.

[tuppi]

Thx!

So in your preferred methods:

---

do you pull/pass? Is it clear?

BR,
Mika

[Tramticket]

It is clear. You pass.

You only remove the double if you have a clear expectation of making your contract. 5C might make, but I wouldn't expect it.

[wank]

yes pull. opps either have an 11/12 card fit or we have enough values for game.

[mikeh]

tuppi, on 2015-May-06, 00:16, said:

Thx!

So in your preferred methods:

---

do you pull/pass? Is it clear?

BR,
Mika

Pull

And pull to 5♣. The usual way to pull with 2 suits is by bidding 4N, showing two places to play. Partner will bid the cheapest suit in which he has 4+ cards, and if it hits one of your suits, you pass, while if it doesn't you bid the next cheapest suit that you hold: in this way you will always find a fit, unless partner happens to be something like 2=3=5=3 and you are 2=4=3=4,since you would bid hearts over his diamonds...he will usually have at least 2 suits with 4 cards in them. Here, the disparity in length, strength and texture is such that you want to commit to clubs.

This 5♣ is a two way shot. Your shape is poor to leave in the double: there is simply too much chance that the opps have 10 or even 11 cards in spades, and while taking 4 tricks on defence is possible, it is scary to defend that sort of fit. Meanwhile, altho you don't have a great hand, you do have a good suit and the odds are that any red finesses are working. Plus partner can have substantial extras, such that you have 11 tricks or more. Note that when the opps have a truly long fit, you aren't getting rich on defence even if you go plus, so it is worth stretching for a game if there is any hope of doing so, as there is, imo, here.

Edit: got confused and wrote as if partner were in balancing seat, not direct.

[ahydra]

mikeh, on 2015-May-06, 09:06, said:

the odds are that any red finesses are working.

Is that really the case? West will have the length in the reds, sitting over partner's putative finesse-attempt-able cards. (Not sure what to call them - e.g. with AQ sitting over Kx, normally one would say the K is finessable but how does one describe the Q?)

ahydra

[mikeh]

ahydra, on 2015-May-06, 09:10, said:

Is that really the case? West will have the length in the reds, sitting over partner's putative finesse-attempt-able cards. (Not sure what to call them - e.g. with AQ sitting over Kx, normally one would say the K is finessable but how does one describe the Q?)

ahydra

sorry, read the positions the other way around. I still pull, but now think that the odds that we are making are reduced and the odds that they are making are increased, and the net change is slightly more in favour of a pass, but not enough to make me pass.

[tuppi]

Thx a lot everybody!

One final question. What are your thoughts in this situation

---

and what will you do?

Maybe you already guessed that me and my partner lack agreements in these kind of situations and after some disasters we finally are trying to make ones. So all ideas/thoughts are wellcome!

BR,
Mika

[P_Marlowe]

A common approach is, that X over 4S showes transferable values,
i.e. it is T/O, but the doubler has to expect, that the double
will be passed out, in case the doubler does not want to see a
pass from partner, he has 4NT as a T/O.

Against 4H a double is T/O. Partner should try to find a bid, but
if he thinks pass is the lesser evil, he can pass.
4M is already game, i.e. the x is not handing them the game bonus.

With kind regards
Marlowe

#1Partner should pull
#2Pass, given that partner is a passed hand, this is "easy": you are
less likely to have game your way. Given your spade length, you will
usually only have a 8 card fit, and this makes the 5 level dangerous.
If you are in 4th position, partner had the chance to make a T/O, with
shortage, but obv. lacks strength.

[mikeh]

Historically, in NA at least, it was common to play that a double of 4♠ was penalty, while a double of a lesser suit was takeout or optional (optional is really the same as what is now commonly called 'transferable values'.

Thus 50 years ago most players would simply say double with the 4=4=5=0 hand and look forward to making the opening lead.

You can't have it both ways. There is a very good reason that expert players gradually moved from playing penalty doubles towards playing transferable value doubles which, by their nature, can tolerate partner pulling to a long suit and which don't promise trump tricks...it isn't that a modern double 'denies' trump tricks...but partner isn't supposed to make his pass or pull decision on the basis that doubler has anything at all in spades.

So one of the costs of playing the modern style is that every now and then you have to let a wonderful penalty double go by without a bid.

This isn't unique. Think of negative doubles. Every now and then you pass their overcall, hoping to hear partner reopen with a double, and partner either passes or bids something else and your 1100 has disappeared.

The only 'solution' is to play adjective bridge, but the directors frown upon that sort of thing