[Free]

Flame, on Mar 11 2005, 02:38 AM, said:

Im surprise to there isnt a simple consensus here.
This bid is your way to show a hand not strong enough for imidiate 2c, so its oviously not forcing.

Many play 2♣ as NF, so as a result of this, Dbl followed by a suit is at least forcing for 1 round. However, if you don't play negative freebids, then this would rather be NF (but what is pass followed by some ♣s?).

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Mar 11 2005, 01:08 AM, said:

cherdano, on Mar 10 2005, 09:01 PM, said:

inquiry, on Mar 10 2005, 09:46 PM, said:

♠Kx ♥Qxxx ♦Axxxx  ♣Qx

1♦ 1♠ Dbl pass
2♥ pass ?

Pass. If opener can do no more than 2♥, we are high enough, although I might also bid 3♦ if non-forcing.

Wow. You have a likely 8-9 double fit, 9 working points plus an extra queen for free, two ruffing values, and you don't have a game invite?
I don't doubt you are right, just shows again how light you(r partners) open. Would you agree that this is a clear game invite opposite a "modern standard light" opening, or am I misjudging this hand?

Arend

How certain are you that your partner has four hearts?

Ben, I think you cannt(should not) pass 2H. Yes, 2H doesnt promise four. That is why we shoudl make another move by 3D. This should show 4H,4+D and invitational hand. In this case I think we can have the cake and eat it.

[pclayton]

HeartA, on Mar 10 2005, 01:45 PM, said:

mike777, on Mar 10 2005, 04:32 PM, said:

Gerben42, on Mar 10 2005, 04:23 PM, said:

pclayton, NFB isn't standard FOR YOU. For me it is.

In the given sequence 2♣ would have been forcing so now 3♣ is not forcing. It means: I have a NFB in ♣ but I can not bid this in some other way.

If playing NFB then 2clubs is not forcing, hence the name NEGATIVE.

Agree. Direct 2C is not forcing, if play NFB. 3C after dbl is forcing.

In a pick up partnership, I wouldn't expect NFB to be on. I'm not an authority on what is standard in other parts of the world, but I still wouldn't think NFB are standard anywhere. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If we agree that our double shows 4 hearts (it does for me anyway) and partner reveals a fit, then as I stated before, 3♣ is a game try.

Of course, playing NFB, the double is just a "punt" and the conversion to 3♣ is the slow way of showing a good hand with clubs.

[inquiry]

flytoox, on Mar 11 2005, 10:17 AM, said:

Ben, I think you cannt(should not) pass 2H. Yes, 2H doesnt promise four. That is why we shoudl make another move by 3D. This should show 4H,4+D and invitational hand. In this case I think we can have the cake and eat it.

Yes I like a construcitve 3♦ bid here non-forcing, and mentioned that possibility.

Now then, my recommended pass is conservative I admit... perhaps from playing too long with ultra light openings. The spade king is well placed (in theory) and worth more than it might seem, but my hearts are weak. Give me QTxx or Q97x and I would not be quite so conservative. The possibility of 4-3 fit is real to me however, so Qxxx is a little scary.

From a loser count (7 losers) this is an invite hand. Partner rates to have 7 or 8 losers for his 2♥ rebid. If he has seven, game is reasonable shot. From ZAR perspective, game try is necessary as well, as this hand has 25 points, and partner rates to have 26 minium so game invite is surely the book bid. The problem is hands like...

♠Qx ♥Kxxx ♦KQJx ♣Jxx. here we can lose 1S, 2/3H, 2C. and go down even in two hearts against unlucky 4-1 trump split. Now this is pestimtic. Partner could also be...

♠Ax ♥Kxx ♦QTxxx ♣Axx where you have a club, a diamond, and surely three heart losers. The real question becomes, how strong the 2♥ bid can be. I open 14 point balanced hands 1NT, so if partner had 14 he would open 1NT if balanced, and with 14/15 and unbalanced, he would jump to 3♥. So he is either 11-13 balanced or 11-13 unbalanced. Opposite 11-13 balanced, we are high enough. Opposite unbalanced, something in my hand might be wasted. Let's consider,

♠x ♥KJxx ♦KQxxx ♣Kxx. now we lose 1♣, 1♥, 1♠, but they might be able to obtain a ♦ ruff, and we still ahve to worry about 4-1 heart split. BTW, my partenr would jump to 3♥ with this hand (with fit and 6 losers plus hook value in hearts, 2♥ an underbid) and WE STILL have a chance to go down.

Another hand, where you are in trouble on the get go is something like....
♠QJx ♥AKxx ♦KQxx ♣xx, the defense might start spade ace, spade ruff, cub king, spade ruff, club Ace... and you are down in 3♥ before you can turn around.

Once again, I admit that pass of 2♥ is timid. I admit I like a non-forcing 3♦ here to show 4♥ and some game interest. I admit that one could draw up many more hands where game is laydown opposite this raise to two. I just devaluate the north hand due to 1) the weak heart spots, 2) the Qx of clubs in not worht 2 pts, 3) the Kx of spades is plus minus value. The bidders here maybe right, and especially vul at imps (Where you probably should just blast to game rather than invite)... why blast game there? Two reasons, partner is less likely to open on junk balanced hand raising the expected minimum for 2H rebid, and game reward vul is more valuable when vul.

Ben

[HeartA]

pclayton, on Mar 11 2005, 09:50 AM, said:

n a pick up partnership, I wouldn't expect NFB to be on. I'm not an authority on what is standard in other parts of the world, but I still wouldn't think NFB are standard anywhere. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If we agree that our double shows 4 hearts (it does for me anyway) and partner reveals a fit, then as I stated before, 3♣ is a game try.

Of course, playing NFB, the double is just a "punt" and the conversion to 3♣ is the slow way of showing a good hand with clubs.

Agree.

Without NFB, 3C should not forcing. That is another point. Without a strong hand and 4-card ♥ and 5+ card ♣, I would bid 2♣ first and 2/3♥ (if available) on next turn.

[waychan]

waychan, on Mar 8 2005, 08:43 PM, said:

opener:
♠Kx ♥Qxxx ♦Axxxx ♣Qx
responder:
♠xxx ♥Ax ♦Qx ♣AKJ10xx
♠x ♥Axxx ♦Qx ♣AJ10xxx
1♦ 1♠ 2♣ pass
2♥ pass ?
1♦ 1♠ Dbl pass
2♥ pass ?
1♦ 1♠ 2♣ 2♠
pass pass ?
1♦ 1♠ Dbl 2♠
pass pass ?

first hand is opener, sry all
when 2♣ = F1, IMO, if 3♣ non-forcing why not start with 2♣ then bid 3♣? so double then 3♣ is forcing or non-forcing?

[Flame]

Free, on Mar 11 2005, 06:17 AM, said:

Flame, on Mar 11 2005, 02:38 AM, said:

Im surprise to there isnt a simple consensus here.
This bid is your way to show a hand not strong enough for imidiate 2c, so its oviously not forcing.

Many play 2♣ as NF, so as a result of this, Dbl followed by a suit is at least forcing for 1 round. However, if you don't play negative freebids, then this would rather be NF (but what is pass followed by some ♣s?).

First of all if someone didnt say he play NFB we should assume he isnt or atleast ask him, but this guy actually said he doesnt play nfb, he said an imidiate 2c would have been forcing to 1 round.