[xx1943]

Scoring: IMP

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Playing 5-card mayors and 1NT forcing our biddign went:

1 spade - 1 NT
4 spades

Questions:

1) Who is to blame?
2) Would you bid 2 hearts with the South-hand insr´tead of 1 NT?
3) What is the rite bid for North after 1NT?
4) Which meaning had the bid of 2NT as rebid from North

Looking forward your opinions

Sincerly

Al

[pclayton]

There will be oodles of posts on this saying, "Well, I'm not faced with this problem because I play the "(insert name here)" convention".

Its a great hand for Precision.
Its a great hand for a 4♦ autosplinter (but you BETTER agree whether or not 4♥ is natural, a cue bid or Last Train).
Its an OK hand for Meckstroth adjunct.
Its a horrible hand for my 2♣ / 2♦ opener (2♣ - 2♠ - 3♠ - 3N - 4♠ AP).

But the North hand is just a little off for a 4♠. This hand is an excellent dummy for hearts or even clubs. 3N may be the spot.

Not playing anything but old-fashioned judgment, try 3♣. This will get you delayed preference, diamonds (probably), hearts or clubs, or NT.

4♠ is an impatient bid.

A 2N rebid by Opener doesn't show this hand, unless you play 2N as artificial. 2N shows a balanced 17+ - 19-.

I can't see that South did anything wrong; 100% to North.

[sceptic]

that looks like the way I bid on occasions, so definately North should bear the burden of a crazy bid. all I can say is he is lucky his p had an A and that the spades where not on the other side of him.

after 1nt I think 3 spades is favorite

2 hearts by south is not what I would expect from a 2/1 bid

[mr1303]

I'll agree with that. You should really have at least a 7 card suit, or at least a better 6 card suit than AKxxxx.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but

1S 1NT
3S 3NT

looks sensible to me. Or if you must manufacture a force

1S 1NT
3C 3H
4H

looks like good bidding to me.

Other than that, 2NT shows 18-19 typically, i.e not this hand. 3S is probably a slight underbid, but will get you to the right spot on this hand.

2H wouldn't even occur to me by S, for the following reasons:

1) Stiff in partner's suit = bad
2) J high suit = bad
3) 8 count = bad

[inquiry]

xx1943, on Feb 19 2005, 02:41 PM, said:

1) Who is to blame?


Looking forward your opinions

Sincerly

Al

North is to blame. South has a perfectly normal forcing 1NT bid

Quote

2) Would you bid 2 hearts with the South-hand insr´tead of 1 NT?

No.. this is a perfectly normal 1NT bid

Quote

3) What is the rite bid for North after 1NT?

2♣, which is almost never, ever passed. See this nice descripton on opener;s rebids after a forcing 1nT reply, or if you can't stand bidding 2♣, then a forcing 3♣ or an invitational 3♠ could be used.

See this link for a nice discusson. 6 card Majors after 1NT forcing?

Quote

4) Which meaning had the bid of 2NT as rebid from North

Balanced hand, five card major, too strong for 1NT opening bid.

[mr1303]

Interesting. 2C didn't occur to me, but now it's been mentioned I think that's 100% correct.

Problem now is what does S do after 2C? 2H should show a longer or better suit than this, and 2S doesn't look too pretty with just a stiff spade.

[sceptic]

2 clubs can get passed out, how can that be right? if you are going to underevaluate your hand why not 2 spades?

[luke warm]

i'd bid it 1s : 1nt : 3s i'm afraid... i expect south to then bid either 3nt or, more likely, 4s... and phil's right (as usual), this works well for pretty much any strong club system

[inquiry]

sceptic, on Feb 19 2005, 04:51 PM, said:

2 clubs can get passed out, how can that be right? if you are going to underevaluate your hand why not 2 spades?

2♣ is effectively "never" passed .... (among good partnerships)... and those very few times it is passed, it is almost always the right contract.

This hand is much too strong to rebid 2♠ which is often passed.

[mcphee]

I beleive 3C is the best bid as it strikes me you would like to create a GF. Now you easily reach a H game. The issue as I see it is there are some hands where partner will be marginal with C length and pass, x Qxxx xxx Kxxxx for example. Even with the K of H pass is not unreasonable. Now many 3/2 C splits produce a game.

N was playing along leaping to 4S when partner may have a hand with 6H KQ short S as well as the A of D or K of C and slam has potential, not a very wise choice at all.

[Walddk]

inquiry, on Feb 19 2005, 06:13 PM, said:

2♣ is effectively "never" passed

2♣ is never passed if you play something sensible: Bart or the like. After

1♠-1NT

2♣ is a relay, asking for shape. Gazzilli, like the Italians play, is also a great tool. 2♣ can be a variety of hands (2♦ is forced as most play it). Whether you play Bart, Gazzilli or whatever doesn't matter. You will easily reach top spot: 4♥.

Gazzilli can also be used after a 1♥ opening (1♠ and 1NT responses):

http://www.padovabri...ie/gazzilli.htm

It's in Italian, but hopefully easy to understand (at least I do, and I don't speak Italian).

Roland

[Flame]

1NT is a normal bid, not even close to 2h for me.
I would bid 3C with the north hand since i dont want to miss 8-9 card heart fit.

[HeartA]

I slightly prefer 2C to 3C as I didn't know the direction for this hand yet. As Ben said, if 2C gets passed, it's not likely you have a game. My preference:

2C>3C>3S.

3N or 4S would never come to my mind.

1N is the only bid by SOuth. 2H? unless you play a totally differenct system.

[aray]

I guess all the comments are mostly influenced by seeing the hand . 3♣ is undoubtedly a bad bid. you are saying 5-4 with a 6-3 hand.. length difference of 3 actual and stated 1. offcourse very easy to find that in this hand it is easy after 3♣ but in many hands it would be a disaster if partner is allowed to exercise his mind.

2♣ is better than 3♣ as u get more chances to hide your bluff and correct the scenario. But stilll you can not pass the message properly and in a danger to be passed out because partner would be less inclined to play a 5 level contract with poor support in ♠.

What about 3nt? it should show 18-20 and a 6 card ♠ suit (if u r not too old to not to open 1nt with 5 card major) but more prefereably a 6-3-2-2 hand and offcourse rules out 4♥

Auto splinter? in support of what?? if you think ♠ is the suit, you deserve to get more awful breaks than this hand.

What about 2♥? with 4+♥ and something more than a dog, it is almost going to be alive by partner.. and it will not be jump supported (opener's 2nd suit can not be jump supported with 4 card). If partner bid 3♥, bid 3♠ to clarify or else if he bids 4♥ happy..

offcourse all these assume, you do not know the italian variation..

[TimG]

aray, on Feb 20 2005, 06:39 PM, said:

I guess all the comments are mostly influenced by seeing the hand . 3♣ is undoubtedly a bad bid. you are saying 5-4 with a 6-3 hand.. length difference of 3 actual and stated 1.

I do not believe a jump shift implies a suit length difference of one. Equal suit lengths are common, and 6-4 is also. I do agree, however, that it is seldom useful to jump shift into a three-card suit.

[dogsbreath]

I think 4S is daft .. if it's the right contract p will be able to help .. 2nt over 1nt looks right to me as we need some partial fit somewhere to make any game
Rgds Dog

[han]

Fred often says that you shouldn't jump shift unless you have a plan. I don't so I bid 2C. 4S is way off on such a suit.

I do play 2C forcing here, but if I didn't play it I would still bid it.

[WrecksVee]

Point of interest re the Gazilli link in Italian. I just used Google to find the link and used it to translate the page into English. For non-Italian readers efen if it is a bad translation, it is likely to be more helpful.

[Stephen Tu]

In standard, no Gazilli treatment or similar being played, the only way for opener to create a force after 1nt is to jump shift. Hence if you don't want to miss game opposite responder's minimum 6-8 pt hands, you have to jump shift. This includes jump shifting into 3 cd (sometimes 2cd!) fragments, and partner should cater to that possibility in later rounds of bidding, and not automatically assume 5-4 or 6-4. Jumping to 3M doesn't work since it's not forcing. Jumping to 4M is inferior because usually that is treated as hand with longer spades and less in high cards, and less suitable to alternate strains. It also robs responder of room if he has a good hand.

With the given hand, I see nothing wrong with a jump shift into 3c, planning to raise hearts, pass 3nt, & rebid/raise spades otherwise.

If opener bids 2c only, playing standard, not Gazilli, surely responder's percentage action is to pass, no? Opposite opener's much more common minimum holdings, anything else rates to put you into minus territory.

If you don't jump shift on this type of hand, you either commit yourself to spades when NT / hearts / clubs could be better, or you risk playing 2c with game on.

I don't see much risk in jumping to 3c, as long as responder is aware of this hand type being a possibility.