[mike777]

btw the governor has stepped in and demanded justice for Mr. Brown and his family. No mention of justice for the officer and his family.
NBC news has declared Mr. Brown innocent.
CNN reporters have stated the autopsy justifies the claims of the protesters.

I guess it is the contrarian in me senses something amiss when the mass media and the head of government and thousands of protesters if not millions, all come down on one side.

[blackshoe]

Saw an article today based on an interesting picture. Allegedly, two Ferguson LEOs — they were wearing clothes that looked like police uniforms and were armed — had arrested some reporter and were escorting him, holding him between them. However, neither of these "officers" was wearing a badge or a nametag. Must we assume that such people are police officers, just because they claim they are? If we ask to see badge or id and they do not show it, are we justified in assuming they are not police officers, but are in fact criminals impersonating police officers? May we then resist, and if so how much force may we use in doing so?

[mike777]

blackshoe, on 2014-August-20, 01:12, said:

Saw an article today based on an interesting picture. Allegedly, two Ferguson LEOs — they were wearing clothes that looked like police uniforms and were armed — had arrested some reporter and were escorting him, holding him between them. However, neither of these "officers" was wearing a badge or a nametag. Must we assume that such people are police officers, just because they claim they are? If we ask to see badge or id and they do not show it, are we justified in assuming they are not police officers, but are in fact criminals impersonating police officers? May we then resist, and if so how much force may we use in doing so?

But..,but you start with a bias...you start with a framing...


too much force rather than

too little force way too little.


to be honest this is common...people start with too much force..never with too little force

please just read this thread...how many start with too little force? how many threads start with the police do too little far too little

-----------------

I don't mean to disagree.

The story is police state

The story is gvt is killing young black men.

the story is millions don't trust the police the arm of government. they are killing young black men by the thousands over the past 60 years./


The government has killed thousands and thousands of black men/of people of color over the past 60 years


------


what is the most surprise is the American people think they have killed something close to zero over the past 60 years....just ask them.

[billw55]

mike777, on 2014-August-19, 15:08, said:

NBC news on their 5pm show just reported Mr. Brown is innocent.

Innocent of what?

[kenberg]

mike777, on 2014-August-19, 20:53, said:

btw the governor has stepped in and demanded justice for Mr. Brown and his family. No mention of justice for the officer and his family.
NBC news has declared Mr. Brown innocent.
CNN reporters have stated the autopsy justifies the claims of the protesters.

I guess it is the contrarian in me senses something amiss when the mass media and the head of government and thousands of protesters if not millions, all come down on one side.

Perhaps someone will write a book, Ferguson: How to turn a tragedy into a large scale calamity. They could devote several chapters to the media. But there will still be plenty of material for other chapters.

[Winstonm]

blackshoe, on 2014-August-20, 01:12, said:

Saw an article today based on an interesting picture. Allegedly, two Ferguson LEOs — they were wearing clothes that looked like police uniforms and were armed — had arrested some reporter and were escorting him, holding him between them. However, neither of these "officers" was wearing a badge or a nametag. Must we assume that such people are police officers, just because they claim they are? If we ask to see badge or id and they do not show it, are we justified in assuming they are not police officers, but are in fact criminals impersonating police officers? May we then resist, and if so how much force may we use in doing so?

y66 posted a link to this article on page 3, comment #51, if anyone would like to see the picture and read the article.

[Winstonm]

mike777, on 2014-August-19, 20:53, said:

btw the governor has stepped in and demanded justice for Mr. Brown and his family. No mention of justice for the officer and his family.
NBC news has declared Mr. Brown innocent.
CNN reporters have stated the autopsy justifies the claims of the protesters.

I guess it is the contrarian in me senses something amiss when the mass media and the head of government and thousands of protesters if not millions, all come down on one side.

Same with me. When I see someone consistently offering one-sided information I question motivations. (From McClatchy):

Quote

.... Through a special unit, the department could launch a wide-ranging investigation into a “pattern or practice” of behavior by local law enforcement agencies.

....Led by the Special Litigation Section, part of the department’s Civil Rights Division, previous pattern-or-practice investigations have targeted alleged problems at the Family Court of St. Louis County, the Albuquerque Police Department in New Mexico and the Miami Police Department, among others.

....In November 2012, for instance, Justice Department officials initiated the probe into allegations that Albuquerque police routinely used excessive force. The 46-page report released in April 2014 concluded that Albuquerque police, who killed 20 people between 2009 and 2012, “often use deadly force” even without an imminent threat of death or serious harm to officers or others.

....When completed, these broader investigations can incite systemic reforms. The Pennsylvania Department of Corrections, for instance, instituted improvements following a Justice Department inquiry into the dangers facing gay and transgender inmates.

Regardless of the outcome of this particular case, there seems to certainly be some kind of problem in Ferguson that needs to be addressed. even if only a problem of perception.

P.S. Is CNN still considered a "news" organization?

[kenberg]

Winstonm, on 2014-August-20, 08:34, said:

Regardless of the outcome of this particular case, there seems to certainly be some kind of problem in Ferguson that needs to be addressed. even if only a problem of perception.

Indeed. And not just in Ferguson.

Civilization works because most people largely but into it. We tolerate, some of us even cheerfully, a little variation around the edges. There was a dog that would show up in the yard when I was out mowing. I like dogs and I would play with him a bit. But I guess someone told the owner he can't let the dog run loose since I no longer see Jackson. I miss him, but rules are rules.

In some communities, this breaks down. Do a thought experiment. Imagine you are a cop, a couple of young guys are walking down the center of the street, you tell them to get up on the sidewalk, they tell you to stuff it. You do what? If cops largely have the community support then this doesn't happen that often and when it does you can probably cope. If a large, or even a significant, part of the community is on the side of the guys walking down the street and thinks that you should stuff it, you have a problem.

In an ideal world, the cop could say "Look, get out of the street now or I'll be telling your grandmother and you know how that's going to go". It's not an ideal world, alas.

[barmar]

kenberg, on 2014-August-20, 10:02, said:

In an ideal world, the cop could say "Look, get out of the street now or I'll be telling your grandmother and you know how that's going to go". It's not an ideal world, alas.

I remember that episode of Andy Griffith. That was a world in which Barney Fife could be an effective police officer.

Now I wish I were a film-maker, I'd love to do a spoof where Barney Fife found himself relocated to Harlem.

[kenberg]

barmar, on 2014-August-20, 11:58, said:

I remember that episode of Andy Griffith. That was a world in which Barney Fife could be an effective police officer.

Now I wish I were a film-maker, I'd love to do a spoof where Barney Fife found himself relocated to Harlem.

I did say "ideal"!
OK, so I exaggerated a bit.
I imagine the show exaggerated a bit also.

[blackshoe]

When I was a freshman in college, I went back to my old high school to touch base with some people. Long story shorter, I ended up in my mother's car, on a side street next to the school, talking to a girl I knew. For quite a while. After some time, the cop who was directing traffic on the main drag marched down to us, and told me I was blocking traffic, and to drive up to the corner and park. Which I did, all the while thinking "what traffic? There's been no traffic here." He asked for my license and registration, and then asked "who's Barbara?" "My mother," I replied. After haranguing me for a while, he said "I know your mother well, and I'm going to tell her about this." Then he let me go. I went home. "Hey Mom, you know a cop named Miller?" "No," she said. "That's what I thought."

[kenberg]

I remember those days. The cop probably had a daughter of his own. Gotta watch those college boys and see what they are up to with our girls.

[blackshoe]

kenberg, on 2014-August-21, 06:46, said:

I remember those days. The cop probably had a daughter of his own. Gotta watch those college boys and see what they are up to with our girls.

[cherdano]

The sickness of overaggressive use of force by the police in the US is best shown by the shooting of Kajieme Powell.

http://www.vox.com/2...-Kajieme-Powell
http://www.vox.com/2...-kajieme-powell

The telling part for me is that a police union spokesperson commented that this video footage is "exculpatory", when any normal person would think of their behaviour as somewhere between overaggressive, unprofessional, needlessly escalating, and completely insane.

Of course, white privilege makes it easier to ignore.
http://www.rogereber...ans-an-anecdote

[cherdano]

It is actually interesting to think about why I am arguing so much more aggressively than kenrexford above.
Ken is arguing within the system. That's how you win cases - you have to convince judges and possibly jurors, who think within the system.

But I want to change the system. If we have come to the point where the police
- comes up to a very clearly mentally ill person who has just committed a minor non-violent crime,
- shouting "GET DOWN OR WE WILL SHOOT" as their first interaction with him,
- shoots him 12 times (despite being armed with at best a knife) because he doesn't follow orders,
- then handcuffs him,
- and the union representative thinks of this behaviour as normal,
then clearly there is a bigger problem.

Just think about handcuffing someone whom you have just shot to death with 12 rounds - its completely inhuman behaviour.

[Winstonm]

cherdano, on 2014-August-21, 18:30, said:

The sickness of overaggressive use of force by the police in the US is best shown by the shooting of Kajieme Powell.

http://www.vox.com/2...-Kajieme-Powell
http://www.vox.com/2...-kajieme-powell

The telling part for me is that a police union spokesperson commented that this video footage is "exculpatory", when any normal person would think of their behaviour as somewhere between overaggressive, unprofessional, needlessly escalating, and completely insane.

Of course, white privilege makes it easier to ignore.
http://www.rogereber...ans-an-anecdote

I have no knowledge firsthand but I have read that to police a knife is a greater threat than a gun. The police in the video certainly seemed to act quickly but it is hard to know how much threat they felt. That said, I point all the way back to Ronald Reagan's ideology that the mentally ill should not be government's responsibility - funding dried up for mental health facilities, a liberal SC ruled the mentally ill had equal rights, and people with severe mental illnesses ended up on the streets, where they were arrested only to be released back to the streets.

I, too, think this whole system sucks - and mental health sucks the big one.

[cherdano]

Winstonm, on 2014-August-21, 19:00, said:

I have no knowledge firsthand but I have read that to police a knife is a greater threat than a gun. The police in the video certainly seemed to act quickly but it is hard to know how much threat they felt.

I think it's besides the point how they felt. Their insane aggression put themselves into a position where they had to make this decision. The person was still 2 m away from them when they started shooting, they could easily have backed away, they didn't have to shoot him 9 times, they could have aimed at his legs (he wasn't moving towards them the moment they shot him). And, when you shoot someone, he falls to the ground and stops moving, you don't handcuff him. You make sure an ambulance is called and you practice your first aid skills.

I really can't tolerate what has apparently come to have been accepted as normal police behaviour in the US. It's not just about extreme situations as in the video, it is really any interaction between police and citizens. Elsewhere, a police officer standing around would be the first person I ask for directions. In the US, he'd be the last.

[mike777]

Again police are trained to shoot to kill. This is not the movies. They do not shoot in the arm or leg or shoot the knife away. They shoot to kill.

If the shooting is not justified ok. But if shooting is justified then deadly force is justified. It is clear many posters don't know American Law or simply hate the law.

I have posted the law in MO and a plain reading of the law is it is rather broad. Perhaps Case Law limits it but the law as written in regards to the police and deadly force in the state of MO. is rather broad.

Now if you believe black men, young black men in the USA are being murdered by the police and you distrust the police....ok that is your belief.
I don't know the exact stats but if this is roughly true:

12 million arrested.
400 killed of all colors by police for any and all reasons \
2012 fbi stats?

dO you know without looking on google how many law enforcement killed and wounded in 2012?

[mike777]

21 foot rule.


If you have a knife and within 21 feet you can kill your opp often before they can shoot with accuracy and stop...
Keep in mind we are discussing seconds...micro seconds. 6 seconds =6 bullets


This is what police are trained.

Again I just wonder if these posters have any idea of police training and deadly force.

OTOH if you believe the police are out to murder young black men ok.

We are told eyewitness reports tell us this is cold blooded murder.

[cherdano]

If you are saying that the police in this video followed normal police training - then that's exactly my point. There is something wrong with the training, not with the individual officers who pulled the trigger.