[cherdano]

Scoring: IMP

You dealt, opponents silent.
1♠-1NT-
2♥-3♦-
??

---

You have agreed that 3♦ is constructive, all invitational hands would have been shown via 2NT (ok, may be a bit ugly, but for the purpose of the poll you may as well assume that a partner could have showed an invitational hand with long diamonds via 1♠-3♦).

What is this hand worth? Moreover, is it worth consulting partner?

Edit: Vulnerability and dealer corrected. Sorry.

This post has been edited by cherdano: 2005-February-14, 08:57

[mr1303]

I think I'll pass this one. a) you have only 1 club stop, and not a brilliant one at that, since you can't hold up at all

partner's diamonds may not be running, since with AKJxxx he would have bid 3D at his first opportunity.

c) hearts may be wide open.

[mcphee]

It is hard to imagine what you term as "constructive" that will not offer a play for game. Is a jump to 3D showing a sound suit 6+ cards in this case like AKJxxx, or does it have to be a tad better? If this is what I would expect my patner to have to bid 3D I would have to invite with a raise as the 3D call is more likely based on KJ or AJ 6th of trumps and some side card. I can't see that pass is an option at imps.

[pbleighton]

What is "constructive", versus "invitational"? If it's ~8-9 hcp with a decent but not great suit, then passing 3D looks good to me.

Peter

[flytoox]

I think I will bid 5D in IMPs. I am not worrying too much about hearts, but clubs. Of course, it depends on the exact meaning of 3D. Does it promise a good suit?

[inquiry]

Before I bid I need to know a few things..

1) Is our opening of two diamonds a weak two in diamonds? This is highly relevant as partner has 6+ diamonds here and didn't open two or three diamonds, and clearly he lacks a four card major.

2) What would and immediate P-1S-3D be? Mini-splinter? Fit jump? or very weak diamonds. If very weak diamonds, given a passed hand, does this shed any light on lower limit of the intermediate diamonds on this auction?

3) Will partner pass a ZAR 26 count hand with 6 diamonds in first seat? Hands like
♠x ♥xx ♦AKxxxx ♣Jxxx (and if we are playing weak twos in diamonds, this hand is clearly impossible). If we assume he can not have a ZAR opener...and that 2♦ would have been a weak two, any hand he has is probably not good enough... likely holding is ♠xx ♥xx ♦AKxxxx ♣Qxx at best. Give him seven diamonds, he is 7321 with at least 26 Zar points if he has ♦AK... or give him 6421 he is 26 Zar points if he has AK of diamonds....

If we don't play weak two diamonds, and if partner will pass these obvious ZAR opening hands, as there is a chance partner could have a fair hand like this. But to make game he has to have one of the super hands.. AK of diamonds sixth and no more than two hearts... you know, the perfect hand. Give him... ♠xx ♥x ♦AKxxxx ♣xxxx and slam is good bet... but give him ♠x ♥xxx ♦AKJxxx ♣Qxxx and even game can't make. So with this understanding, that he COULD still hold a ZAR opener... I bid 4♣ (no this is not showing the club king..... despite what the poll says). This has to be game try in diamonds, if partner is looking at short heart here, I think he will go.. if he cue's 4♥ we will end up in slam.

Ben

PS... and the fact that I bid like this with this hand, makes me very hard to play with... :-) But come on, we ALL Know that 4♣ here has to agree diamonds....

[cherdano]

Oooops, I am sorry. For some reason got both the vulnerability wrong, and the dealer.

South dealt, and we are vulnerable.

Arend

[cherdano]

inquiry, on Feb 14 2005, 02:17 PM, said:

2) What would and immediate P-1S-3D be? Mini-splinter? Fit jump? or very weak diamonds. If very weak diamonds, given a passed hand, does this shed any light on lower limit of the intermediate diamonds on this auction?

Assume 1S-3D is invitational with 6 diamonds. It's not exactly what we play, but I think the poll makes most sense in this context.

Quote

PS... and the fact that I bid like this with this hand, makes me very hard to play with... :-)  But come on, we ALL Know that 4♣ here has to agree diamonds....

Actually this would clearly have been a cue bid for diamonds for us. (I think
Default agreements: Was this a cuebid? is worth a discussion for most partnerships.)

Arend

[inquiry]

cherdano, on Feb 14 2005, 10:32 AM, said:

Assume 1S-3D is invitational with 6 diamonds. It's not exactly what we play, but I think the poll makes most sense in this context.

If 1♠ - 3♦ (without forcing NT) is "invite with 6 diamonds", that means 3♦ after 1NT is less than invite with 6♦... in that case I pass 3♦ instead of my 4♣ bid. But I would like to explore the difference of an immediate 3♦ as 6+ invite and forcing 1NT followed by 3♦ being constructive.. to be sure we use the terms "constructive" and "invite" the same way.

ben

[cherdano]

Ok, more about 1♠-3♦:
I would certainly not treat x xxx AKJxxx xxx as invitational.
But xx x AKJTxx xxxx would be one. Now if you ask about xx xxx AKJxxx xxx, probably not. x Axx KJTxxx xxx would not be an invitation, either. xx xx AKJxxxx xx would also be an invitation. - xx AJTxxxx xxxx wouldn't be one.
On the lower end, 3♦ definitely shows a decent suit. xx xx KJTxxx Qxx would obviously not be enough. xx xx AKxxxx xxx certainly would be. About 8-9 hcp with a good six card suit.

Btw, If partner has x xxx AKJxxx Qxx (which he cannot have), do you really think game is so bad? The bidding seems to indicate a trump lead, and unless opening leader is looking at ♥AK or ♥KQ, he may well not lead a heart.

Arend

[mike777]

1) P is a passed hand so does not have 11 hcp
2) P did not open a weak 2D, I assume we play that?
3) How do you bid a weak hand with long D that does not open 2d on this auction?
4) If p is a passed hand but does not open weak 2D, what is the diff between invite hand with long D and constructive hand with long D but a hand that does not open a weak 2D? Very confusing.
5) If p is opening 1s in third seat how can a passed opener have an invite hand with long d and 10 hcp and bid 3d, that makes no sense. Why not just bid 2d with that hand type?

[inquiry]

cherdano, on Feb 14 2005, 10:52 AM, said:

Btw, If partner has x xxx AKJxxx Qxx (which he cannot have), do you really think game is so bad? The bidding seems to indicate a trump lead, and unless opening leader is looking at ♥AK or ♥KQ, he may well not lead a heart.

Arend

I think a heart lead is more likely than you might suspect. Opener with 5-4 or 5-5 in the majors, then raises to diamond game opposite an invite. While he can ruff clubs (0 or 1 clubs), the source of tricks must be somewhere else. Add to that, opener leader could have QJT, KQT, AKQ, KQ, JT9, etc in hearts all of which look attractive, and even AQxx in hearts might lead to a tricky heart lead as the king if not in partners hand is behind the queen...

Whenever I bid five of a minor with xxxx opposite xxx in some side suit, they always seem to find that suit

[han]

4C obviously shows diamond support (this has nothing to do with default agreements, you CANNOT have any other hand for this auction to make sense!), but in my opinion, this should show a better hand than 4D. I vote for 4D, but pass might easily be right.

It is nice that you play 3D as constructive, what do you do with a weaker hand and long diamonds?, say x xx AJ10xxxx xxx?

[cherdano]

Hannie, on Feb 14 2005, 06:38 PM, said:

4C obviously shows diamond support (this has nothing to do with default agreements, you CANNOT have any other hand for this auction to make sense!), but in my opinion, this should show a better hand than 4D. I vote for 4D, but pass might easily be right.

I think your CAPITALS are a bit of an overbid How about COG? I.e. a 5=5=3=0 or a
6=5=2=0 hand that does not know yet which strain to play?

Quote

It is nice that you play 3D as constructive, what do you do with a weaker hand and long diamonds?, say x xx AJ10xxxx xxx?

Nothing...

Arend

[fred]

5D is my guess. An invitational 4D won't get the job done because partner won't know that a card like the King of clubs rates to be useless (since I might bid the same way with a 5422 hand and xx in clubs). Since partner won't be able to make an intelligent quantitative evaluation, I just bid what I hope we can make.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[HeartA]

flytoox, on Feb 14 2005, 08:54 AM, said:

I think I will bid 5D in IMPs. I am not worrying too much about hearts, but clubs. Of course, it depends on the exact meaning of 3D. Does it promise a good suit?

I would bid 5D, too, both in IMPs and MPs.

[cherdano]

At the table I bid 4♦, but when I made this poll I was pretty convinced that it is wrong. I think partner has no chance to judge correctly. How should he know that any hand with ♦AJ and at most two hearts makes for an excellent vulnerable game? That I have 4 immdediate tricks from the top (which is very relevant if he has club losers on a trump lead), so that it doesn't matter at all whether he is 2=2 or 0=4 in the black suits?

I think one either has to pass or bid game, and I like 5♦. Okok, I may be resulting:

Scoring: IMP

---

As expected, partner was pretty much on a guess over 4♦, passed with his 7 losers (I think I agree), and we scored +190 on a diamond lead.

Btw, Ben, I hope you wouldn't open partner's 26 Zar point hand with 1♦??

Arend

[inquiry]

fred, on Feb 14 2005, 05:25 PM, said:

5D is my guess. An invitational 4D won't get the job done because partner won't know that a card like the King of clubs rates to be useless (since I might bid the same way with a 5422 hand and xx in clubs). Since partner won't be able to make an intelligent quantitative evaluation, I just bid what I hope we can make.

Fred,

I agree that 5♦ is most likely spot and a direct 5♦ has a lot to say for it. However, I have a follow up question. As responder, after opener bid 1!S, then rebid 2!H, and then raises to 4!D, I think most people would discount the club king as responder. Assuming we agree that a 4♣ bid by opener is in support of ♦'s, what is the difference in your mind between the bidding 4♣ and 4♦ on these two auctions
...

1♠   1NT
2♥   3♦
4♦

Versus

1♠   1NT
2♥   3♦
4♣

[fred]

inquiry, on Feb 15 2005, 02:03 PM, said:

fred, on Feb 14 2005, 05:25 PM, said:

5D is my guess. An invitational 4D won't get the job done because partner won't know that a card like the King of clubs rates to be useless (since I might bid the same way with a 5422 hand and xx in clubs). Since partner won't be able to make an intelligent quantitative evaluation, I just bid what I hope we can make.

Fred,

I agree that 5♦ is most likely spot and a direct 5♦ has a lot to say for it. However, I have a follow up question. As responder, after opener bid 1!S, then rebid 2!H, and then raises to 4!D, I think most people would discount the club king as responder. Assuming we agree that a 4♣ bid by opener is in support of ♦'s, what is the difference in your mind between the bidding 4♣ and 4♦ on these two auctions
...

1♠   1NT
2♥   3♦
4♦

Versus

1♠   1NT
2♥   3♦
4♣

This first auction is invitational. It asks partner to pass with a minimum and to bid 5D (or maybe make a last minute suggestion of 4 of a major) with a maximum.

The second auction is a slam try (and thus a game force). If partner bids 4D over your 4C you can't pass.

My contention is that you don't have to have club shortness for either of these calls (but in practice you would almost always have short clubs for 4C) - you could be 4522.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[cherdano]

fred, on Feb 14 2005, 09:25 PM, said:

5D is my guess. An invitational 4D won't get the job done because partner won't know that a card like the King of clubs rates to be useless (since I might bid the same way with a 5422 hand and xx in clubs). Since partner won't be able to make an intelligent quantitative evaluation, I just bid what I hope we can make.

And your guess would have been right at the table, as partner had
- xx AJTxxxx xxxx.

At the table I bid 4♦ (partner passed), but when I made this poll I had become strongly convinced that this is wrong. I think it is either pass or bid game, as partner has no chance to make an informed decisision. In addition to the problem of the club suit mentioned by Fred above, consider also that my hand has no problem playing opposite spade shortage (the difference between the actual spade suit and AQJTx or KQJTx opposite spade shortage is, of course, MUCH bigger than 2-3 hcp), and heart shortage is even welcome. Almost the opposite of what partner will assume in his hand reevaluation.

As RHO had ♥Kxxx, club values and ♦xx, a trump lead was natural, and our apparently side made 7 tricks in diamonds at all tables (apart from very few 3NT games). Less than half the field (reasonable field, German "Regionalliga") found the game.

Thx for the replies
Arend