[dickiegera]

now what?

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West now bid 3♣ and East passed. Made 6 clubs. Five club is an easy make.
How can West bid differently to force the auction? OR is 3♣ a forcing bid?
2♣ was NEW MINOR FORCING one round.

Here is East's hand

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Thank you

[whereagles]

3♣ after NMF is game forcing (unless otherwise agreed), on "fast arrival" grounds.

But how about natural bidding?

1♦ 1♥
1NT 3♣

[Cyberyeti]

whereagles, on 2014-April-08, 15:22, said:

3♣ after NMF is game forcing (unless otherwise agreed), on "fast arrival" grounds.

But how about natural bidding?

1♦ 1♥
1NT 3♣

To me this is what I bid with a 2416 6 count although I don't play standard NMF.

[Bbradley62]

In my world, East's three bids show 3244 with 12 or bad 13 HCP, having denied 4 spades, 3 hearts and 5 diamonds. How much more info does West expect to get before he places the contract?

[kenrexford]

3C directly instead of 2C often shows 55 and gf, which seems like a no brainer. If 3C is not forcing, then surely the delay auction would be. Granted, you know that there is a fit, but partner doesn't. Bidding 3C if gf will allow you to set trumps and then pattern out.

The answer is not one of theory, but one of agreement.

[kenberg]

Clearly the immediate problem is that your partnership agreed to play nmf w/o discussing its subtleties, and you got caught in this.
For me, the 3♣ bid is forcing. Obviously, for your partner, it wasn't.

I have thought the following general default is fairly practical: Second round jump rebids by responder, all of them [added: Other than a jump reverse, of course], are invitational. Going through an artificial bid and then bidding at the three level is forcing. Ok, there may be times when you want to change this default. But if you start with it then, when an undiscussed auction such as the one in the OP comes up, you know. In the OP, it is forcing.

I have a partner who likes to play 1♦-1♥-1NT-3♣ as weak, rather than invitational. I prefer invit, but with him I play weak. I won't go into the arguments for and against, my point is that we have agreed that this is an exception to the default. Which reminds me, I have to ask him about 1♦-1♠-1NT-3♥. With the majors it could be different. I think, again, this should be invitational. With the forcing hand you bid 2♣ before you bid 3♥. And with weak you just rebid 2♥. But I must ask him. And you and your partner must decide what your 3♣ bid is. Surely there must be a way to bid a strong hand with hearts and clubs, so what is it?

[kandyd]

dickiegera, on 2014-April-08, 15:11, said:

[hv=pc=n&w=sa52hat872dckqt87&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=p1dp1hp1np2cp2np]133|200|


How can West bid differently to force the auction?

How about 3 spades? It's definitely forcing and also describing your hand

[whereagles]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-April-08, 16:03, said:

To me this is what I bid with a 2416 6 count although I don't play standard NMF.

That's called a "funny jump" I believe. But IMO it's indeed the sort of thing that needs agreement.

[suokko]

Why not bid 2♦ as opener with minimum and no extra length in majors?

To me 2NT sounds like creating a game forcing situation in depend of meaning of 1♦-1♥;1NT-2♣;2♦-3♣. But even in that biding I would assume 2♥ to be only nonforcing bid by responder. NMF should promise 5+M or FG values. With that definition you can simple simple offer to stop to 2M when not having FG values.

I would like to combine that with all direct bids above the responder's major as natural invitational NF bids. But I would not assume partner to understand that thinking without discussing it first. (Above 3M splinters)

[Codo]

suokko, on 2014-April-10, 01:11, said:

Why not bid 2♦ as opener with minimum and no extra length in majors?

To me 2NT sounds like creating a game forcing situation in depend of meaning of 1♦-1♥;1NT-2♣;2♦-3♣. But even in that biding I would assume 2♥ to be only nonforcing bid by responder. NMF should promise 5+M or FG values. With that definition you can simple simple offer to stop to 2M when not having FG values.

I would like to combine that with all direct bids above the responder's major as natural invitational NF bids. But I would not assume partner to understand that thinking without discussing it first. (Above 3M splinters)

Because 2 ♦ shows another hand?

For the original question: 1 ♥/3 ♣ OR 1 ♥/ 2♣/3♣ is gameforcing. You better have the same idea as your partner about this.