[Chamaco]

Hi all.

Ultimate Club uses the following sequences to show 16+ minimum (16-18) 2 suiters (which correspond to about 4-4.5 losers hands) :

a. 1C:1D
2S = 55 or better, touching 2suiter

b. 1C:1D
2NT = 55 or better, nontouching 2suiter

In both cases, the next step by responder asks for which is the 2 suiter.
Any other bid except next step up is simply pass or correct, not promising any strength.

Now, for a lot of reasons, I am inclined to use the DIRECT 2S and 2NT OPENINGS to show that type of hand, with the same followup.

The question is NOT whether you think this is a good idea or not (I posted the question in a previous thread).
I know several of you prefer more preemptive 2S/2NT openers, so this is a discussion I would like - if possible - to skip in the reminder of this thread

The question is rather the following, and assumes that - whether or not a good idea - 2S and 2NT are actually used as touching/nontouching 2suiters with exactly 4-4.5 losers (with more losers, open a suit planning to jump in the other suit at level 3, with less, use strong club).


THE QUESTION

In the following sequences, what is the best way for opener to handle RHO's overcall after pard's positive relay ?


Sequence 1

2S*-(pass)-2NT**-(3S)
?

*= generic touching 2 suiter, 4 losers
** = positive relay

Now what is the best policy for opener ? What are the best meanings for double pass and bid suit ?
What about:
A )
- DBL = PENALTY
- pass = nothing to say, pard can double for penalty

B )
- DBL = PENALTY
- pass = touching suits immediately below the overcalled suit
- bid = bid the lower of touching 2 suiters
this is better to describe the shape, but it becomes almost impossible to penalize them unless they overcall in one of opener's suits.



Sequence 2

2NT*-(pass)-3C**-(3S)
?

*= generic nontouching 2 suiter, 4 losers
** = positive relay

Now what is the best policy for opener ? What are the best meanings for double pass and bid suit ?

Thanks !

[inquiry]

Somewhat out of my depth here... but how about this...

2♠-(PASS)-2NT-(3♠)

• Pass = spades and hearts, or spades and clubs or diamond and hearts
  
• DBL = clubs and diamonds

After a pass, the 2NT bidder can reopen with double when short in spades, and likley catch partner with good spades. If 2NT bidder is long in spades (even three), he knows partner has red two suiter, or if 2NT bidder doubles, and opener pulls both know opener has red two suiter.

OVer DBL, responder can evaluate rather to risk 5 of a minor, 3Sx, or take a stab at 3NT knowing opener has the minors without getting beyond 3NT to find that out.

I guess I would use the same rules on your auction 2, but now pass shows spades and diamonds specifically while double shows hearts and clubs, so is clearer.

[Chamaco]

I have to say that actually the Ultimate Club bids xplicitly the touching 2 suiter by bidding the lower ranked suit from 2S up, skipping 2NT (used as generic nontouching 2suiter).

So the title of this post is misleading.

However, I'd like opinions on this sequence anyways

[inquiry]

Now that I have answered these questions.. you might want to consider saving 2S for something else, and go with 2NT, 3C, 3D and 3H as transfer preempts or two suiters...

Something like... Misho and I use soemthing different, but you get the idea.
2NT = club preempt, or hearts and diamonds
3C = diamond preempt or spades and hearts
3D = heart preempt or spades and a minor
3H = spade preempt or both minors

[awm]

Seems to me that having a penalty double in these auctions is very valuable. Coming in over 5-5 hands at the 3-level can be quite dangerous and opponents should be made to pay.

After 2NT-P-3♣-(some bid) I'd recommend:

X = penalty, opponents suit is one of opener's suits
Pass = the other non-touching two suiter (both suits are now known)
Bid = the other non-touching two-suiter, with void in opponents' suit (unsuited to defend)

After 2♠-P-2NT-(some bid) things are a little less clear, because there's more than one hand which doesn't include the opponents' suit. But it still seems like the way to go is something like:

X = penalty, opponents suit is one of opener's suits
Pass = two other touching suits; only one suit here is known. in various competitive auctions responder can bid the cheaper of these unknown suits as "pass/correct."
Bid = lowest of two touching, with void in opponent's suit

The knowledge of 1st round control in the opposing suit can be a valuable slam bidding tool, as well as helping partner decide when to penalize (since pass suggests 1-2 cards in their suit).

In terms of possibly playing transfer preempts, I'd much prefer to play that the transfer always shows the suit transferred to. The main problem with transfer preempts (and multi) in my opinion is the inability of partner to raise to a high level when appropriate. This often lets opponents into the auction when they would otherwise be guessing. So I'd recommend something like:

2NT = club preempt or strong with clubs + another
3C = diamond preempt, or strong with diamonds + major

In fact you get something very much like "original" ultimate club by using:

2S = non-touching two suiter
2N+ = transfer to the next suit, either (weak) one-suiter or (strong) lower of two touching

-- Adam

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Feb 10 2005, 05:28 PM, said:

Now that I have answered these questions.. you might want to consider saving 2S for something else, and go with 2NT, 3C, 3D and 3H as transfer preempts or two suiters...

Something like...  Misho and I use soemthing different, but you get the idea.
2NT = club preempt, or hearts and diamonds
3C = diamond preempt or spades and hearts
3D = heart preempt or spades and a minor
3H = spade preempt or both minors

Ben,
I like the idea very much,
but unfortunately I have to play within the rules set by the Italian Federation,
and I am not sure whether these openings are legal.

FIGB does not allow (in mid/low flights) any weak bid ranging from 2C ->3S that does not specify 5+ cards in a well-defined suit. Even Gambling 3S opening is forbidden.

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Feb 10 2005, 05:28 PM, said:

Now that I have answered these questions.. you might want to consider saving 2S for something else, and go with 2NT, 3C, 3D and 3H as transfer preempts or two suiters...

Something like...  Misho and I use soemthing different, but you get the idea.
2NT = club preempt, or hearts and diamonds
3C = diamond preempt or spades and hearts
3D = heart preempt or spades and a minor
3H = spade preempt or both minors

Hi Ben , I have checked with some TDs and the scheme you suggest is legal in Italy.

Therefore I am interested in verifying it

However I have the following 2 major doubts.

1. Problem 1: HOW TO SET TRUMPS BELOW GAME (useful for cuebidding and keycard asking)

Il'll explain this with an example.
Suppose pard opens 3C = Diamonds preempt OR H+S 2-suiter.
We have a fair hand, say 10-11 hcp, and bid 3D.

Now how does pard show he has the strong hand ? I suppose by bidding 3H.
But then, how does responder agrees hearts below game ?

One possible solution is to change opener's rebid scheme, leaving an extra step, e.g.:

2NT = club preempt, or hearts and spades; if responder bids 3C, 3D shows the strong hand, and lets responder pick the suit,
3C = diamond preempt or spades and clubs; if responder bids 3D, 3H shows the strong hand, and lets responder pick the suit
3D = heart preempt or clubs and diamonds; if responder bids 3H, 3S shows the strong hand, and lets responder pick the suit
3H = spade preempt or diamonds and hearts; if responder bids 3S, 3NT shows the strong hand, and lets responder pick the suit

However, even this approach has 2 minuses:
1. it is not clear, when reponder picks a suit, wheter it is to play (responder may hold a yarborough), or sets trumps below game to start cues
2. when opener is strong with C+D or D+H, it is impossible to signoff at the 3 level for a weak responder in misfit


2. Problem 2: WHEN OPENER IS INTERESTED IN GAME OPPOSITE A PREEMPT
(finding best game/slam)

I'll also explain this via an example.
Assume opener bids 2NT (C preempt or D+H), and responder has a strong hand, say a reverse, with 5/6 good spades.

Bidding goes(opps silent)
2NT:3S
?

How does opener discriminate between:
- preemptive hands with fit in Spades
- preemptive hands without fit in Spades
- strong 2-suiters (red suits in the specific case) with Spades fit
- strong 2-suiters without Spades fit
NOTE THAT FOR EACH OF THESE 4 OPTIONS THERE SHOULD BE ROOM FOR RESPONDER TO AGREE BELOW GAME ONE OF OPENER'S 2 SUITS, LEAVING ROOM FOR CUES AND SLAM TOOLS



Thanks ! :-)