[hotShot]

How do you tell that you are playing with an expert?

I often read something like:

Quote

He could not even make a simple finesse.

But true Experts avoid to do a finess, because a 50% chance is the best a finesse can get you. Preparing a squeese or some kind of endplay often has better chances.

So maybe advanced card play, is sometimes to advanced to be understood bei intermediate players.

What other examples of advanced play can you think of that might be hard to understand for intermediate players.

[inquiry]

Short answer, yes.

[hotShot]

inquiry, on Feb 9 2005, 02:36 PM, said:

Short answer, yes.

I have no doubt that an advanced / expert player can tell, It's beginner and intermediates I'm not so sure about.

[sceptic]

I can generally tell an real expert (they are not as nasty and unforgiving as pretend ones) they at least seeem to have the decency to say good bye after the first one or two hands LOL

[FrancesHinden]

They make contracts other people go off in.
They defeat contracts other people are making.

What strikes me when I watch a world-beating card player (e.g. Helgemo) is how he gets things right that look to me like guesses.

[junyi_zhu]

hotShot, on Feb 9 2005, 02:28 PM, said:

How do you tell that you are playing with an expert?

I often read something like:

Quote

He could not even make a simple finesse.

But true Experts avoid to do a finess, because a 50% chance is the best a finesse can get you. Preparing a squeese or some kind of endplay often has better chances.

So maybe advanced card play, is sometimes to advanced to be understood bei intermediate players.

What other examples of advanced play can you think of that might be hard to understand for intermediate players.

When I executed a cross squeeze, my intermediate opps always thought they have made a defensive mistake. This happened three times in my early days at okbridge.
Actually the best way to tell whether a player is a good declarer or not is to let him play a shaky 4-3 fit, intermediate players or beginners can seldom play them correctly while experts can seldom play them in a complete wrong way.

[inquiry]

Forget all that, if you ahve to wait until a squeeze comes along, it will take a long time to figure out your partners ability. Watch how he handles his spot cards. Pay attention to his choice to signal or not. And look for safety plays at imps, and "risky" plays at mp when it slightly the wrong contract.

Those will tell, and quickly.

[the saint]

Quote

What strikes me when I watch a world-beating card player (e.g. Helgemo) is how he gets things right that look to me like guesses.

I have been fortunate to watch and play F2F against some of the finest players in the world. The really good ones 'know' what is going on. I saw Helgemo and Forrester defending a routine 3NT contract that had a few pitfalls in defence but should normally be one off provided it was timed correctly. Helgemo systematically solved each of Forrester's problems for him beautifully. His aura at the table was something else. I haven't seen any player so aware of absolutely everything that was going on.

[mycroft]

Watch how the expert handles the bad contracts. A true expert will usually pull off at least one more trick than the ordinary player. Also, the true expert won't give away the fact that she's in a bad contract (it always does my heart good as defender to hear declarer complain when dummy comes down).

A quote from Watson: Oswald Jacoby claimed to be the best player of bad contracts in the world - because he had had to play so many of them.

Also, watch how many "shaky" game contracts she gets into - and how many of them she pulls off.

If you're playing with a true expert, it will feel as if she's showing you her cards, you can read her so well. She will also usually play as if she can read yours. You might not even understand what she's doing that makes you feel that way.

I can usually size up an opponent's skill within 5 or so boards. Okay, I can't judge between "expect to win the Bermuda Bowl" and "expect to make it to the KO stages" levels - those all go into the "let's just try not to lose our shirts here" bin.

Michael.

[Free]

Checking if you're playing with an expert is a bit like handevaluation: you don't know why, you don't use rules, but you know the right answer

[luke warm]

this might seem silly, or like a little thing, but for me the best thing about playing with a really good player is, she understands (especially at mps) *why* you took a certain line as declarer... all a novice or even an intermediate (not all of them, of course) notes is what happened, not necessarily why it happened

[Free]

luke warm, on Feb 10 2005, 12:36 AM, said:

this might seem silly, or like a little thing, but for me the best thing about playing with a really good player is, she understands (especially at mps) *why* you took a certain line as declarer... all a novice or even an intermediate (not all of them, of course) notes is what happened, not necessarily why it happened

Good point!! I completely agree

[bearmum]

hotShot, on Feb 10 2005, 03:28 AM, said:

How do you tell that you are playing with an expert?

I often read something like:

Quote

He could not even make a simple finesse.

But true Experts avoid to do a finess, because a 50% chance is the best a finesse can get you. Preparing a squeese or some kind of endplay often has better chances.

So maybe advanced card play, is sometimes to advanced to be understood bei intermediate players.

What other examples of advanced play can you think of that might be hard to understand for intermediate players.

REAL experts are those who(IMO)

1. Always countthe cards in ALL suits
2 Make correct inferences from bidding and cards played (and can alter their perceptions FAST if necessary)
3 Almost always pick the right line of play (ie sqeeze? strip and throwin ? etc) {IF I manage the right one it's nornally a LUCKY guess}
4. An expert will get more good scores (even playing the SAME cards) as a non- expert

LASTLY a REAL expert is one who IF playing with somebody who is nowhere as good as s/he is NEVER makes them feel bad

[the hog]

LASTLY a REAL expert is one who IF playing with somebody who is nowhere as good as s/he is NEVER makes them feel bad

Hmmm! Tell that to Ira Rubin, (also known as "The Beast").

[guggie]

Playing with an expert you get that rocking chair feeling... bridge is easy... In defense, they seem to know yr hand... give the right signals, make winning leads; in bidding they make life easy for you too, never a riddle but paving the way for you.
Being dummy you see the initial thinking and the smoorth play. Being the leader you play better because you dont want to be sloppy, counting all the time, cards and tricks;-)

[slothy]

guggie, on Feb 10 2005, 05:01 AM, said:

Playing with an expert you get that rocking chair feeling...

Guggs, i have never played bridge in a rocking chair, because

1) it would send me to sleep faster than i would do normally and
2) clicking the mouse is like trying to lick a lollipop in a rowing-boat on a choppy lake and
3) i have to deal with enough swings playing the contracts, so a self-induced pendular motion is unnecessary.

I agree with everyones opinion about what constitutes an expert - except Jimmy of course agreeing with him is painful.

IMO, it is easier to identify an expert in a team game (or similar scoring).

As declarer, they know the safety plays, endplays, other play techniques and thus see their way to X number of tricks taking a surer line. It may be the wrong one on a particular occasion, and a lot of people are very willing to point that out (of course to prove their own expertness) , even though, say, 7 out of 10 times their line would have succeeded.

As defenders they also appreciate the dilemmas facing declarer better than others. They are able to get 'inside their heads', read the possible layouts of the two unrevealed hands better, and thus are more likely to find a defence to either get the contract off or make it more difficult for declarer. They dont tend to defend instinctively - unless it is obvious ( and when it is obvious lesser players tend to think and they dont ) - but think (more) about the potential ramifications of pursuing a particular defensive strategy.

Temperament (if we talking about on line play in particular) of course plays a part in evaluating a true expert, in the sense that no matter how good S/HE is it is the overall performance of both players that determines the eventual result.

A TRUE expert does not spend 8 paragraphs of precious window space saying how unlucky s/he is when a line s/he took is wrong or how if the 9 of diamonds was with West she would have pulled off the coup...

she would apologise and accept that she was wrong (notice SHE a male expert would use other words that would insinuate he was sorry but never categorically)
hoping that her p understood her line (damn, showing i agree with Lukey ). her philosophy being: if my p didnt appreciate my line of play then why bother explaining??????

When i play with experts, self-confessed or otherwise, who i KNOW are better than me, i am very willing to take criticism and advice but, the thing is, a true EXPERT would say it in such a way that it would be instructive, constructive and non-threatening where the benefactor is you and not an self-ego-massaging opportunity. He appreciates that the more comfortable you are and the more confidence you have the better your scores will be for the remainder of the match. Most of the time he is willing to discuss a badly-played hand or deduction AFTER the match. Of course, he has to be aware that this is what YOU want.

A bad expert doesnt appreciate this...he launches into a tirade of expletives that would make my grandmother turn in her grave, bless her false teeth. He makes one feel like [EDITED - uday] , so one plays like [EDITED - uday] : that simple equation unfortunately seems to elude them. (and this happens when 2 experts, apparently, play together).

SO i think it is a combination of 3 things...technical knowledge, 'card sense' and temperament.

Sloffy

[luke warm]

you sure seem to agree with me a lot... i think it's a sign of your increasing maturity and wisdom

[slothy]

luke warm, on Feb 10 2005, 06:10 AM, said:

you sure seem to agree with me a lot... i think it's a sign of your increasing maturity and wisdom

Yes Jimmy my friend it appears to be so: ever since reading your posts on an irregular basis as they are peppered intermittently between those i really want to read i have found that i have become more wise and more mature...

Have to go now....i want to finish colouring in my 'Learn Snap With Dr Seuss' book and fill my bath so that my rubber duckies can have a little swim before i take them walkies...

Sloffy

[sceptic]

I played at boian's table once with aconcerto and tobice. I can't judge which of them is the best expert, but I can say they are dam good ambasadors for the game and that must count for experts in my eyes, I have yet to meet a star with their head up their own backsides. ( I suppose I could try harder LOL)

Bens partner misho also must be one of best ambasadors for the game (not forgetting Ben)(sigh a little brown nosing does you no harm hahahahaha)

I don't really know how to sit at a table and assess someone as an expert, but I played against one (I think, can't remeber his or her name), but every time I tried something it went wrong, may be I am that bad or maybe they just have the ability to know what a intermediate is going to do incorrectly and takes full advantage of it.

I think perhaps taking advantage of opponents mistakes is a very good judge of an expert.