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Escape sequences after (3X)-3NT-(Dbl) ?

#1 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-February-09, 08:21

Hi all, I'd like to know of the following escape sequences from 3NT doubled.
What do you think are the meanings:

1. considered "standard"
2. your preferred agreements even if they are non-std


Thanks !! :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sequence 1: meaning of ADVANCER's bids

(3)-3NT-(X)- ?


a. Pass: does it mean "nothing to say" or does it force a redouble ?
b. XX = is it SOS or "we can make it" ? what does the failure to redouble mean ?
c. 4/5 of a suit: I assume this is natural, weak(ish)
d. I assume cuebid at the 4 level is a slam try although not clear in which suit and which type of hand it might show


Sequences 2.1 and 2.2: meaning of OVERCALLER's bids

2.1
(3)-3NT-(X)- Pass
(Pass) ?


Here the meaning of Pass, XX and suit bid is related to the meaning of advancer's pass

2.2
(3)-3NT-(X)- XX
(Pass) ?

Here the meaning of Pass, XX and suit bid is related to the meaning of advancer's Redouble.
"Bridge is like dance: technique's important but what really matters is not to step on partner's feet !"
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#2 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2005-February-09, 08:26

If the doubler bid correctly, you should be in trouble no matter what you do. Just bid a long suit if you have one, or pass and leave it to pard to bid a long suit of his own. Eventually you can redouble with a two-suiter, but bear in mind in that case pard probably has a 1-suiter of his own.

If you want to keep redouble as natural (in case RHO misbid), with a two-suiter you can bid the lowest suit. If it gets doubled, bid the second suit and leave it for pard to choose. The worst that can happen is an extra undertrick if pard puts you back into the 1st suit.
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#3 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2005-February-09, 08:29

Some people play redouble from either hand as "doubt" i.e. 3NT might be making but they aren't sure... what does partner think?

I have a much simple approach to life:

(3X) - 3NT - (x) -

xx = strong. It is making.
suits = natural, weak
cue bid = strong 2-suiter
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#4 User is offline   mila85 

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Posted 2005-February-09, 08:30

No special agreement.

(3)-3nt-(X)-?
pass....you bid 3nt, your problem.
redbl...I'm strong, you will make it

(3)-3nt-(X)-pas
(p)-?
pass...3NTx
redbl...Ok, I'm not so strong.

(3)-3nt-(X)-XX
(p)-?
pass...3NTxx
suit.....sorry p
Sorry, my english is not perfect :(
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#5 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-February-09, 08:31

FrancesHinden, on Feb 9 2005, 02:29 PM, said:

I have a much simple approach to life:

(3X) - 3NT - (x) -

xx = strong.  It is making.
suits = natural, weak
cue bid = strong 2-suiter


In your approach, I suppose that then after

(3S)-3NT-(X)-pass-
(pass)-?

here Redouble is SOS, "Pick a suit" ?
"Bridge is like dance: technique's important but what really matters is not to step on partner's feet !"
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#6 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-February-09, 08:42

Ok, here goes then the next question on hand evaluation to those who use advancer's XX as "we can make it".

I use as a criterion to bid over preempts Lawrence's "rule of 7" = bid assuming pard has 7 hcp.

This means that I will bid 3NT over 3 spades with any 18+ balanced (sometimes a good 17), or, quite often, with a long running suit.

So, let's say I can bid 3NT over 3S with all of the following:

1. AKx-QJT-AKxx-Jxx
2. AKx-QJT-AKxx-Axx
3. A-Qxx-Kxx-AKQxxx
4. A-xx-Jxx-AKQJxxx

Now, if bidding goes

(3S)-3NT(me)-Dbl -
(pass)- ?

Now that I have described what he can expect from my 3NT bid, let's put ourselves in advancer's shoes.
Assume he has 6-8 non descript hcp, say

a. xx-Kxx-AJxx-Txxx
b. xxx-Kxxx-KJxxx-x
c. Qx-Kxx-KTxxx-xx

How do you assess these hands (a,b,c)?

- do you redouble to say we'll make it ?
- do you pass ? If you pass, and pard's redoubles (he will with any minimum, including 18-19 balanced), will you run from 3NT (which will likely make if pard has th strong bal hand and not the running suit)

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#7 User is offline   sceptic 

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Posted 2005-February-09, 09:15

take a look at my last post Mauro, is this an example of what you are looking at, (I posted mine before I read this)
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#8 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2005-February-09, 11:45

I'll take a shot:

So, let's say I can bid 3NT over 3S with all of the following:

1. AKx-QJT-AKxx-Jxx
2. AKx-QJT-AKxx-Axx
3. A-Qxx-Kxx-AKQxxx
4. A-xx-Jxx-AKQJxxx

Now, if bidding goes

(3S)-3NT(me)-Dbl -
(pass)- ?

Now that I have described what he can expect from my 3NT bid, let's put ourselves in advancer's shoes.
Assume he has 6-8 non descript hcp, say

a. xx-Kxx-AJxx-Txxx

b. xxx-Kxxx-KJxxx-x
c. Qx-Kxx-KTxxx-xx


happily pass with all three and I won't run even if its rewound (which shows doubt)

How do you assess these hands (a,b,c)?

- do you redouble to say we'll make it ?
- do you pass ? If you pass, and pard's redoubles (he will with any minimum, including 18-19 balanced), will you run from 3NT (which will likely make if pard has th strong bal hand and not the running suit)


I've not given it much consideration, but would you really make a doubt-showing xx (I'll call this a "DSxx") here with the balanced 18? We have no assurance of any fit at the 4 level. To me, the DSxx should be used on hands like: A, Qxx, xxx, AKQxxx that says "I don't quite have my bid pard, but we have a safe haven in my long suit".

I'd like to see others check in on this question.
"Phil" on BBO
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#9 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2005-February-09, 23:15

Chamaco, on Feb 10 2005, 12:42 AM, said:

Ok, here goes then the next question on hand evaluation to those who use advancer's XX as "we can make it".

I use as a criterion to bid over preempts Lawrence's "rule of 7" = bid assuming pard has 7 hcp.

This means that I will bid 3NT over 3 spades with any 18+ balanced (sometimes a good 17), or, quite often, with a long running suit.

So, let's say I can bid 3NT over 3S with all of the following:

1. AKx-QJT-AKxx-Jxx
2. AKx-QJT-AKxx-Axx
3. A-Qxx-Kxx-AKQxxx
4. A-xx-Jxx-AKQJxxx

Now, if bidding goes

(3S)-3NT(me)-Dbl -
(pass)- ?

Now that I have described what he can expect from my 3NT bid, let's put ourselves in advancer's shoes.
Assume he has 6-8 non descript hcp, say

a. xx-Kxx-AJxx-Txxx
b. xxx-Kxxx-KJxxx-x
c. Qx-Kxx-KTxxx-xx

How do you assess these hands (a,b,c)?

- do you redouble to say we'll make it ?
- do you pass ? If you pass, and pard's redoubles (he will with any minimum, including 18-19 balanced), will you run from 3NT (which will likely make if pard has th strong bal hand and not the running suit)

This is very difficult as the 3NT bidder is the only one who knows why he bid 3NT - long running suit and stoppers; balanced strong etc. I must admit I have never discussed this situation with ANY pd.

I guess xx by either hand should express doubt - in which case I guess I would xx on hand 1 and pass 2, and 4. Three I am not sure about - I would need to look at my opponents and the vulnerability. Hard to believe that anyone would X if you held hand 2.
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#10 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2005-February-10, 09:31

Well I am not sure many partnerships have discussed the escape methods here....

First question.
Sequence 1: meaning of ADVANCER's bids

(3)-3NT-(X)- ?


1) I consider pass, nothing to say. It does not force a redouble.
2) I think redouble shows doubt. I wouldn't say it is a takeout redouble, but it is not broke either.
3) I play 4C over the double as pass/correct...to the other minor, but 4D to play.
4) 4H is I want to play hearts

Sequences 2.1 and 2.2: meaning of OVERCALLER's bids

2.1
(3)-3NT-(X)- Pass
(Pass) ?


Here the meaning of Pass, XX and suit bid is related to the meaning of advancer's pass

Pass means I think they made a mistake doubling me... I am a great declearer... you didn't pull, nor did you expressed doubt.
4C means, I have a lot of doublt. Who knows, I may have even psyched 3NT (I ahve been known to do that). Let me play 4Clubs. I would REDBL if I wanted to hear a suit from you.
4D means, I want to play in diamonds.. see redbl
RDBL = lets find a place to play... of course if you ahve great hand.. you can convert. IF I psyched here, I would be bidding....now rather than redbl

2.2
(3)-3NT-(X)- XX
(Pass) ?

Here the meaning of Pass, XX and suit bid is related to the meaning of advancer's Redouble.

Pass means, I think they made a mistake doubling us... with your some values but doubt, I think I can make (Better have EXTRA values for this pass)
4C means, ok.. I am running. This is pass/correct
4D means = I want to play diamonds....

Ben
--Ben--

#11 User is offline   Gerben47 

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Posted 2005-February-10, 09:57

I play Frances' approach, the confidence showing redouble by responder.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!
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