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Minor Response to a Minor Opening

Poll: SAYC Show support immediately? (18 member(s) have cast votes)

Support or bid a suit? 1D is 3+d if 4-4-3-2 else 4+ ; 1D may also be 5c,4d

  1. 2C 10+ (10 votes [55.56%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 55.56%

  2. 2D* 10+ inverted minor (6 votes [33.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  3. Splinter (1 votes [5.56%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.56%

  4. Immediate RCKB Blackwood (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. Strong Jump Shift (1 votes [5.56%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.56%

  6. Others (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1 User is offline   MinorKid 

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Posted 2014-February-19, 01:27



---Edited at 16:45 20/02/2014---
Choices has been added at 16:45 20/02/2014
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#2 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2014-February-19, 02:47

2D just for a simpler auction.
Wayne Somerville
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2014-February-19, 03:24

Is a 3 splinter an option? We are strong enough to move over a sign-off in 3NT I think. Partner can still sign off in 4NT, then, if he really doesn't like it.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2014-February-19, 03:52

3 fit for preference, otherwise 2, we play 3 splinter as specifically a void.
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#5 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2014-February-19, 04:13

Where are you planning to go, bidding 2?
Partner has 4 diamonds, unless he has 3 meaning that he has only 2 clubs. The only hand that partner could have opposite which I would want to be in clubs is a 0454 hand.

I would set the trump suit first by bidding 2. Then we can see what kind of hand partner has. That allows for an easy auction. The auction is forcing as long as you don't bid 2NT or 3 and game forcing as soon as you bid beyond 3.

If you bid 2, it will be difficult to still show your diamond support and force to game and keep NT contracts in the picture. (Think of partner rebidding 2 or 2NT. Do you really want to rebid 4?)

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
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#6 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2014-February-19, 05:52

View PostTrinidad, on 2014-February-19, 04:13, said:

Where are you planning to go, bidding 2?

The reason for bidding 2 would be to follow up with a slam try in diamonds to enable partner to evaluate better than an inverted minor auction. Similarly with helene's 3 splinter. Starting with 2 is ok if we can follow up with a call that shows good clubs or short hearts but in that case we have probably not gained any space (and possibly lost space) over the initial action. Obviously it depends on our inverted structure but the question is whether we can eveluate our holdings more effectively after this start - with a generic IM structure the answer is probably not. Beginning with 2 would be a simpler auction if we were not prepared to move beyond 3NT but surely that is not the case here.
(-: Zel :-)
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#7 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2014-February-19, 08:03

View PostZelandakh, on 2014-February-19, 05:52, said:

The reason for bidding 2 would be to follow up with a slam try in diamonds to enable partner to evaluate better than an inverted minor auction.

I think it is a little premature to commit to a slam try in diamonds when we are not sure of a diamond fit yet.

View PostZelandakh, on 2014-February-19, 05:52, said:

Beginning with 2 would be a simpler auction if we were not prepared to move beyond 3NT but surely that is not the case here.

I see it a little differently: I am certainly prepared to not move beyond 3NT when partner shows a misfitting minimum with heart values.

Partner could have:
Axxx
KJxx
Axx
xx

Opposite that I don't want to be any higher than 3NT.

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
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#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2014-February-19, 08:30

View PostTrinidad, on 2014-February-19, 08:03, said:

I see it a little differently: I am certainly prepared to not move beyond 3NT when partner shows a misfitting minimum with heart values.

Partner could have:
Axxx
KJxx
Axx
xx

Opposite that I don't want to be any higher than 3NT.

Rik


Your partner can hold this, mine can't, don't know about the OP's. Is it common to play a 10+ inverted minor (rather than GF) opposite a potentially <4 card suit ?
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#9 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-February-19, 09:51

View PostCyberyeti, on 2014-February-19, 08:30, said:

Your partner can hold this, mine can't, don't know about the OP's. Is it common to play a 10+ inverted minor (rather than GF) opposite a potentially <4 card suit ?

The OP's conditions are what they are, and seem to make this situation extremely difficult. I believe, however, that it is more common for inverted raises to be inv+ rather than g.f. ---but a significant part of that group have dumped 10 and agree 11+ in support of the minor. Opening bids usually don't have a floor of 13 today.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2014-February-19, 10:27

View Postaguahombre, on 2014-February-19, 09:51, said:

The OP's conditions are what they are, and seem to make this situation extremely difficult. I believe, however, that it is more common for inverted raises to be inv+ rather than g.f. ---but a significant part of that group have dumped 10 and agree 11+ in support of the minor. Opening bids usually don't have a floor of 13 today.


The OP doesn't say what the diamond shows, it makes a big difference if he's playing 5542, 5533 or something else, I just found the suggestion of non GF with a 4 card suit opposite a potentially 3 card diamond unusual. (I play 9+ with 5 or 10+ with 4, but I know I'm facing 4 diamonds, but am trying to use the OP's conditions, I'd just like to know exactly what I might be facing).
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#11 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2014-February-19, 11:03

View PostCyberyeti, on 2014-February-19, 08:30, said:

Your partner can hold this, mine can't, don't know about the OP's. Is it common to play a 10+ inverted minor (rather than GF) opposite a potentially <4 card suit ?

I don't know what the OP can have. But it is pretty common to play inverted minors as invitational or better, also opposite a potentially 3 card minors (or even 2 card clubs).

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
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#12 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2014-February-19, 12:15

Focusing on possible future bidding continuations should make this problem
a bit easier so we are going to look at 3c and 3d rebids later on in the
bidding.
Starting with 2d and later bidding 3c (if available) no matter how the
bidding has gone has to be a suggestion that clubs is a viable spot to
play. xx x AQxx KJTxxx is a hand that would prefer to start with 2d and
rebid 3c as a suggestion to play if p bids 2H/S/N.
Starting with 2c then later bidding 3d(if available) no matter how the bidding
has gone has to be showing game forcing values since it is impossible to go back
to clubs at the 3 level.
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#13 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-February-20, 07:10

In some bidding schemes the sequences

1 2
2 3

1 2
2NT 3

are forcing. The rule here is "2/1 followed by support is GF" (even if a plain 2/1 is not GF).

That seems to be adequate for this hand, since we're a bit too strong for a splinter (unlimited splinters opposite unlimited openers is asking for trouble.. trust me :) ).
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#14 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-February-20, 09:52

View Postwhereagles, on 2014-February-20, 07:10, said:

In some bidding schemes the sequences

1 2
2 3

1 2
2NT 3

are forcing. The rule here is "2/1 followed by support is GF" (even if a plain 2/1 is not GF).

That seems to be adequate for this hand, since we're a bit too strong for a splinter (unlimited splinters opposite unlimited openers is asking for trouble.. trust me :) ).

2/1 followed by support should be gf in your opinion and mine; but it isn't in (for instance) SAYC.

1S-2C
2D-2S is a mere 2-card preference and doesn't commit to game.

But, if that is the OP's understanding, certainly

1D-2C
2N-3D would be the way to go.

BTW, splintering 3H over 1D would indeed be asking for trouble with even a narrow range unless discussed.

Some of us might think it shows a lot of hearts.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#15 User is offline   MinorKid 

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Posted 2014-February-21, 01:29

View Postaguahombre, on 2014-February-20, 09:52, said:

2/1 followed by support should be gf in your opinion and mine; but it isn't in (for instance) SAYC.

1S-2C
2D-2S is a mere 2-card preference and doesn't commit to game.

But, if that is the OP's understanding, certainly

1D-2C
2N-3D would be the way to go.

BTW, splintering 3H over 1D would indeed be asking for trouble with even a narrow range unless discussed.

Some of us might think it shows a lot of hearts.


Brian Senior Suggest that support of a minor after other-minor response is game-forcing. But he is playing ACOL.
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#16 User is offline   MinorKid 

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Posted 2014-February-21, 01:38


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