[the_dude]

You are EW, Swiss teams, good opponents, game all:

---

Our partners had this debacle, at our table we played 5Cx -1 which seemed like an good score since 4S makes.

All calls seem close, where did it all go wrong?

[Zelandakh]

It is hard to answer this without knowing the system in play. Did East have any alternatives to 2♠ at their first turn. If there was, for example, a mixed raise available then we can blame East; if not then it is surely West at fault, although whether the fault lies over 2♠ or 3♠ might also be dependent on system. That said, I am not sure what East has after 4♥ that they did not already show; perhaps West hesitated and East felt that this established a forcing pass.

[Bbradley62]

If there is any blame, and it's not clear there is, I'd bid 3♥ over 2♥ as East, showing a limit raise. But then again, I would have bid 4♥ over 1♠ as North.

This post has been edited by Bbradley62: 2014-February-10, 10:03

[ArtK78]

Bbradley62, on 2014-February-10, 10:03, said:

If there is any blame, and it's not clear there is, I'd bid 3♥ over 2♥ as East, showing a limit raise. But then again, I would have bid 4♥ over 1♠ as North.

4♥ vul over 1♠? That is too rich for my blood.

Until recently, I was playing what many (if not most) North Americans play in competition - that a double raise is preemptive. So 3♠ by East would be a preemptive raise. Assuming that your partnership does not have a mixed raise available, the only bid on the East cards is 2♠. Recently, however, in my regular partnership, we adopted a treatment which my partner attributed to Meckwell - a jump raise in competition is a mixed raise. So the East hand can bid 3♠, and the partnership should get to 4♠.

As for blame, there are many close calls on this auction given the methods in use by the partnership. East has a 2♠ bid for lack of anything else, and West has either a minimum invite or a maximum pass. The doubleton heart is a negative feature steering me towards the maximum pass, but the invite would have worked better.

Game by EW is very lucky - ♥A is onside (not a big surprise), the diamonds are 2-2, and the club K is onside. It is also unlucky that NS bid 4♥ and that 4♥ makes.

By the way, I HATE the double of 4♥. I doubt that you are ever beating 4♥ more than one against competent opponents. And sometimes the opps are right and 4♥ makes.

Except for the double of 4♥, I don't believe there is any blame to assign to EW.

[the_dude]

To answer the inquiries, 2S was the only bid avaialble. 3S would have been preemptive, they do no play mixed raises.

[billw55]

the_dude, on 2014-February-10, 10:29, said:

To answer the inquiries, 2S was the only bid avaialble. 3S would have been preemptive, they do no play mixed raises.

But what about 3♥?

Anyway, in the actual auction, I think east has almost shown his values by bidding a second time freely. Once this is done, I think west is worth 4♠ over 4♥. The conditions are right for "when in doubt, bid one more" - IMPs, competitive auction, both sides have a fit, equal vul. Against this, east should not double, but it is already too late to get a good result so this doesn't matter much.

So I give about 70% west, 30% east, both for underbidding.

[ArtK78]

billw55, on 2014-February-10, 10:41, said:

But what about 3♥?

3♥ is an overbid. If you consistently overbid on hands like this, partner will never believe you when you actually have a 3♥ bid.

[billw55]

ArtK78, on 2014-February-10, 10:50, said:

3♥ is an overbid. If you consistently overbid on hands like this, partner will never believe you when you actually have a 3♥ bid.

Not disagreeing, but I think it is closer than you seem to. Four trumps to the ace, two doubletons, and an apparently well placed ♥K. 3♥ may feel like an overbid, but 2♠ feels like an underbid. If east has no way to show these values, maybe best to blame the system.

[Zelandakh]

the_dude, on 2014-February-10, 10:29, said:

To answer the inquiries, 2S was the only bid avaialble. 3S would have been preemptive, they do no play mixed raises.

Given that they play it this way, do they also play that 2♠ followed by 3♠ is what you do on a mixed raise type of hand? If so and 2♠ can also be made on some lighter hands then West can afford to pass 2♠ and raise 3♠ to 4♠.

That said and done, if we change the hands so that North has ♣K and the spades split 2-2, we can change this to an ATB for bidding 4♠. That alone should tell us that this is relatively close.

I do agree with Art that the double is the only clearly wrong call but West could also have been a little more assertive. After all, that game makes with these shapes is indeed lucky but the fact that the shortages are mirrored is also unlucky. And at Teams 4♠ is often good insurance against 4♥ even when you suspect both contracts are likely to be one down.

[ggwhiz]

I make the final pass by West to be 50-50 at worst an the final double by East close to the same but it only cost 1 imp here and that's a small price to pay to put the opponents on notice.

More like no blame at all with West looking at xx in hearts facing a partner that may be minimum (3♠ in this auction just shows 4 of them and a pulse for us) and East expressed his max with the double knowing the opponents are on less than 1/2 the deck and expecting 2 tricks in hand.

An unlucky parlay that could easily happen to me.

[MrAce]

billw55, on 2014-February-10, 11:04, said:

Not disagreeing, but I think it is closer than you seem to. Four trumps to the ace, two doubletons, and an apparently well placed ♥K. 3♥ may feel like an overbid, but 2♠ feels like an underbid. If east has no way to show these values, maybe best to blame the system.

This

[Mbodell]

ArtK78, on 2014-February-10, 10:50, said:

3♥ is an overbid. If you consistently overbid on hands like this, partner will never believe you when you actually have a 3♥ bid.

I actually think this is a fine 3♥. 4 card support makes a big difference, the K is well positioned, and 8 LTC. A limit raise is an 8 LTC hand, which this also is. Even counting support points you get 8 high cards plus 1 for diamond length + 2 for the 2 doubletons gives you around 11 support points which is also a fine limit raise.

[Fluffy]

Hide north and south cards and all of you guys will want to play 3♠. Perhaps you might want to bid 4♠ as a sacrfice althou it would be a bad bet at MPs for sure. I don't see any particular blame.

[rhm]

Mbodell, on 2014-February-11, 01:16, said:

I actually think this is a fine 3♥. 4 card support makes a big difference, the K is well positioned, and 8 LTC. A limit raise is an 8 LTC hand, which this also is. Even counting support points you get 8 high cards plus 1 for diamond length + 2 for the 2 doubletons gives you around 11 support points which is also a fine limit raise.

I agree. After the 2♥ overcall on your right this is too strong a hand even for a mixed raise. 2♠ is just too much of an underbid.
If you bid 3♥ you can leave the rest to your partner, who might continue over 4♥.
East did the opposite. Underbidding at first and then trying to catch up.

Rainer Herrmann

[Jinksy]

Fluffy, on 2014-February-11, 02:24, said:

Hide north and south cards and all of you guys will want to play 3♠. Perhaps you might want to bid 4♠ as a sacrfice althou it would be a bad bet at MPs for sure. I don't see any particular blame.

I'd rather play 4S by W vul, at least when the alternative is 4H by them. I reckon it's close to or better than a 35% game - assuming no D ruff, S either has to have no D honour, Hxx or the KC.

With a bit of shape, no obviously wasted values, an easy suit to invite in and decent intermediates, I think W is worth a game try vs an amber 2S bid from P, assuming P isn’t a particularly aggressive competer.

[gszes]

I could not vote since I blame East 100% for 2s underbid. This seems to be a clear invite and

3H is the best bid after the 2h overcall dramatically improves the value of the heart K. It is

difficult to imagine west not going to game after a 3h bid by east. One of my rare disagreements

with artk78 we know of at least a 9 card trump fit the heart K (especially doubleton has become

almost as good as an ace. We have what rates to be 2 defensive tricks if the auction becomes

competitive (IMO very important) and even the possibility of ruffs with the 2 side doubletons add

up to 10.5 or so with good trumps (9+ card suit headed by the ace) and I counted little or nothing

for the dia length or the dia J.

[kuhchung]

I would have bid the same as east, but passed out 4H. Does that save a whole imp?

I really wish bidding problems were given with only 13 cards.

[Bbradley62]

kuhchung, on 2014-February-11, 19:09, said:

I really wish bidding problems were given with only 13 cards.

It's difficult to assess blame among two halves of a partnership if we see only 13 cards.

[Antrax]

Bbradley62, on 2014-February-11, 23:23, said:

It's difficult to assess blame among two halves of a partnership if we see only 13 cards.

You can spoiler both hands and ask people to only peek at one, and state whether they agree with the bids that hand made.

[kuhchung]

Bbradley62, on 2014-February-11, 23:23, said:

It's difficult to assess blame among two halves of a partnership if we see only 13 cards.

It's difficult to assess blame when we see all 52 cards.