[csdenmark]

No Todd - completely wrong

To play pass systems is neither more complicated nor more brave than playing club or diamond systems.

Oh perhaps - you need to be a bit more alert when partner opens with a PASS. Only opps. are alerted - yourself need to be awake and remember.

I simply don't understand why you may think partners are able to play less well defined systems(standard classic) with no really agreements but playing acc. to more restrict rules cannot be done in this way. This simply makes no sense to me. Twisting arguments the other way around I think would be right. The better the language is the better and more easily you understand the message. - That's what bridge is about.

Bridge has 3 phases:

• Offensive
  
• Interference handles
  
• Defensive

The characteristica for a system is Offensive - but that is the minor part of bridge. With no system you will be able to play champion-bridge from day one with a new partner. In Vugraph we see well established partnerships often make silly judgements causing misunderstandings as well.

Todd you asked me yesterday to play Tresboof - very well. I declined because I dont know it. I play pass-systems rather little - no partners. I don't like deep relay's and therefore I don't invest much time in that.

Anytime, with no agreements, I will be ready to play:

• Lambda
  
• Beznazwy
  
• Moscito

with anybody in a simple/natural way. Yesterday I asked you too - but you didn't answer me. I understood the message of your silence - but bad manners it is. I am getting used to that way of poor habits from several persons.

I like to inform those interested that we right now are working very hard - in Denmark and in Poland - to have one of the modern and serious polish pass systems(SUSPENSOR) translated into english so it will possible for everybody to play that system. I hope very much it will be the true version of Balicki/Zmudzinski - used in high level championchip play. I am not sure we will succeed in that - and I need to rely on those contacts we will be able to get in Poland. Anyhow I intend to create files for that system in full relay version - and by that time I will be ready to play that system acc. to the correct definitions inclusive relay's.

Yours Claus - csdenmark

[DrTodd13]

Hi Claus,

What did I say to deserve being called "completely wrong?" I said I
wasn't able to play a system given a half page description of that
system. I don't know many people that could do that and even
fewer that would enjoy it. In my younger days when I had more
time I was a system fanatic and I'm not the worst bridge player
on the planet so I don't think it is fair to be called completely wrong.

I am not opposed to learning and playing SUSPENSOR or
something like that with you. I didn't see your message that you
sent to me or I would have responded. People are often away from
their keyboards or have their computers crash. If you don't like the
relays in Tresboof that is fine so please send me SUSPENSOR once
it is translated.

Todd

[the hog]

Claus I agree with Luis. My system notes run to 180 pages. If you wanted to play the full Meckwell precision, this runs to 800 pages and anyway is not available, I believe. How can you possibly understand the naunces of auctions with a 1/2 page summary?

[csdenmark]

Dear Ron!

What's the problem. About a month ago you were so kind to provide me this document:


Strong Pass – Marston-Burgess circa 1985



P
13+ any

1C
8-12, 4+H, may be canape

1D
8-12, 4+S. Not 4H

1H
0-7 or a flat 8

1S
8-12 Both ms

1NT
9-12, flat, no M

2C/D
8-12 no 4M

2H/S/NT
RCO 2 suiters 8-12






Responses



To Pass



1C 0-7 any. Now 1D = 19+ any

1D 13+ reverse relay

1H 8-11 4+H

1S 8-11 4+S not H

1NT 8-11 flat no M

2C/D 8-11, 6 card suit

2H/S/NT 8-11 rco 2 bids



To 1C

1D Inv relay

1H GF relay

Rest nat nf



To 1D

1H Inv relay

1S GF relay

Rest nat nf



To 1H

Pass Nothing to say – syas Nothing about S

1S Relay 18+ Now 1NT = min, rest = natural 5-7

1NT 16-18

2C Transfer to H 12-15

2D Transfer to S 12-15

2H/S 4 in that suit with a long minor, 12-15

2NT 12-15 ms



To 1S

1NT Relay

Rest natural nf









To 1NT

2C Relay

2D/H Transfers

2S Inv raise

2NT Pick a minor

3? Pre empt



To 2C

2D Relay

Rest inv natural



To 2D

2H Relay

Rest inv Except for 3C which is a transfer to H!!!! NB





After relay responses

Use symmetric relay if desired, else you can bid naturally.

After an invitational relay, 1 step shows a min. Rest are natural and max.

On that basis I have created files for handling. The files are available to anybody interested via my web-sites. No problem with that.

I have no intensions trying to re-invent systems - I try to handle as near as possible to origin. Therefore I prefer true versions. Such are rather simple and acc. to rule of 80/20. Others I play those systems with are of a similar opinion.

It is NOT necessary with very complex structures like those in the system for T-Rex I received from you or those I have seen for Tresboof. Precision is in several WEI-approved versions too. CC Wei has published a book with a simplified version. Here I prefer the true championversion Belladonna/Garozzo incl. 3D-Sharif.

I certainly still hope I will have the full system notes we have talked about for Moscito.

Regarding Meckwell - some tells about the 800 pages you refer to some tells such a document is not published - simply because it don't exist's. Looks more like a myth. If you like to play Meckwell acc. to the Bermuda Bowl version - I will be ready any time.

I don't need to discuss before play - actually I just need switching my files for another system - but please give me 10 seconds for that!

Yours Claus - csdenmark

[csdenmark]

Hi Todd

Quote

I didn't see your message that you
sent to me or I would have responded. People are often away from
their keyboards or have their computers crash

I am delighted to see you don't feel comfortable with my accusation to you and I don't like to make such statements either. But I really think I am justified. You are not the first one and not the second one and and not the third one......... who have done so. Mostly it has been calls from incognito's claiming to be an expert.

After the ability to display links as links on BBO I no longer receive such calls - people are now informed that a partnership with me must be based on applying to code of conduct.

Todd you responded to my adverticing. - Thank you for that! - You asked me to play bridge and I think I am right to assume you therefore have no intensions rushing away from your computer. Anything can happen of course - but normally my partners then make a short notice - lacking the eye-contact - that conversation has to be postponed or ended.

Quote

I have some files describing the opening bids for
lambda, regress, etc. but you can't sit down and play based on that
level of understanding.

Like anybody else you have an option to look into the files I have uploaded to WEB and to download the desk-top versions too. As you responded to my adverticing incl. display of this link: http://groups.msn.co...geFILES/cs.msnw the information of that was available to you.

I think I know the file you refer to for opening bids - it is uploaded too. But using the files there is no really point in long theoretical discussions. Just take a chance - see what may come - and then we will be ready for sharing our experience from that!

When I jump into a new partner - that's the basis for start of partnerships playing Precision - Roman Club - Polish Club etc. I simply don't see the need for other kind of agreements just because the system is a bit different. That is the reason for my statement "completely wrong".

Yours Claus - csdenmark

[hrothgar]

Hi Claus

I have a pretty good grasp of Symmetric Relay, however, I really wouldn't feel comfortable trying to play a strong pass variant based on the hands that you provided. Even within a well defined system, there can be some radical differences of opinion regarding basic sequences.

For example, one relay school uses a 2D bid as a single suited junction.
Any 6322/6331/7321 hand will initially be worked through a 2D response.
There is a second school that prefers to immediately zoom with a bid of 2S+ to show the single suited hand.

Just looking at that brief set of notes, I have no way to understand how this will be treated.

If we start looking at more complex topics such as relay breaks life gets even more complicated. For example,
suppose that RR has just rebid 2NT to show some 5332 hand pattern. What does R's 3C response mean?
Some players treat this as asking for RR's doubleton. Other players use 3C to ask for RR's lowest stopper, exploring for 3NT.

A final example, The_Hog and I were playing a week ago and the following undiscussed auction came up:

1H* - (P) - 2S* - (3H)
X

1H shows 4+ Spades, might have a longer suit
2S shows precisely 3 spade

What does opener's double show?
Is it takeout or penalty?

There are plenty of other examples related to relay breaks, auction termination, ... where lots of explicit discussion is required. In short, summary files are a great starting point, but any type of scientific system requires a lot more detail to make sure that you and your partner are one the same wavelength.

[csdenmark]

Hi Richard

I am quite aware of your love to Moscito Club System and realy's too. In my opinion rarely played systems must be played in a simple way easy to learn and easy to handle. Else they are not played at all. Therefore the widespread popularity of Lambda in Poland. There the natural version is played and only very few uses Lambda Complex(Super Lambda).

I think the polish openings are excellent for a natural continuation. 4-5 or 5-5 openings really don't need much more. Maybe a Splinter raise. Other openings are of course therefore defined as 1-suiters or semi-balanced.

Relay or not - the real problem in pass-systems seems to be the weak opening(1D=polish, 1H=Moscito). There I would have preferred something like Blakset 2S opening. But that's another system and therefore not relevant.

I have no intensions commenting your examples. They will be opened differently in different systems. If you want a comment on anything - please construct an example using the features of any of the uploaded systems I have committed to accept invitation for. But basically I don't like doubles at all. They are subject to all too many unsolid misunderstandings. I prefere conventions.

Yours Claus - csdenmark

[the hog]

Ok a last post on this.
Playing Polish Club - one of your posted systems

1C 1Major 2D is odwrotka (19+ 3+ card support)
I know of at least 3 ways to play the responses. Which do you suggest without any prior discussion? Make sure you get it right!

[csdenmark]

Hi Ron!

To this:

Quote

Ok a last post on this.
Playing Polish Club - one of your posted systems

1C 1Major 2D is odwrotka (19+ 3+ card support)
I know of at least 3 ways to play the responses. Which do you suggest without any prior discussion? Make sure you get it right!

Balicki/Zmudzinski:

1C=Always:C:2+cd
*12-15,bal
*12-18,4414,D=short
*15-18,nat clubs
*19+,any


1C-1M=7+HcP,4+cd(Walsh-continuation)

1C-1M-2D=Art ask for holdings of MAJOR suit by responder(steps) - own suit=strong clubs
1st – 4cd,weak hand
2nd – 5cd,weak hand
3rd – 4cd,strong hand
4th – 5cd,strong hand
5th – 6cd,weak hand
6th – 6cd,strong hand

Yours Claus - csdenmark

[the hog]

1C-1M-2D=Art ask for holdings of MAJOR suit by responder(steps) - own suit=strong clubs
1st – 4cd,weak hand
2nd – 5cd,weak hand
3rd – 4cd,strong hand
4th – 5cd,strong hand
5th – 6cd,weak hand
6th – 6cd,strong hand

And that is precisely the problem. Now what? Are new suits natural, are they cues, is the step a relay, what? How do we develop the auction - are we using Polish Slam Asking Bids, do we use the 4D End Signal, are we using 3041 or 1430 RKCB? How can you possibly know without prior discussion?

You see it is not so easy as you think. Sure you might know the opening bids and immediate responses, but if that is it you will not get very far. I get no enjoyment from systemic misunderstandings and I doubt my opponents do either.

Incidentally the above is a simplified method and is not the method that
Balicki-Zmudzinski played when I played them last. They use a relay structure over odwrotka and can work out exact shape.

[csdenmark]

Sorry Ron!

I don't know how BZ played last you played - I have never had that great honour. What I refer to is the information which can be extracted from BZ convention card used for Bermuda Bowls 2001 and other high level champion competitions.

With your big knowledge of BZ's methods I don't think it is right to ask whether polish standard methods for slam are used and whether 0314 or 1430. You simply ought to know.

They use a special method after relay sequences or if not enough space available. They use 1430. You will also be able to see they have a very relaxed way for relay's. They don't need hammer hand-patterns out where they dont need them. Therefore BZ has a light relay structure. It is for practical use and not a desk-top system. Over 2C opening you will see a deep relay structure.

Please note! I am not the composer of BZ-system. I have pictured it - I am a photographer and only that!

From these WEB-sites you will be able to find all information:

http://groups.msn.co...geFILES/cs.msnw
Now I think this thread ought to return to pass-systems.

Yours Claus - csdenmark