[patroclo]

---

East dealer

[ahydra]

EW silent
1H-2D
2H-3C (fake suit to force to game)
3D-4D
4H (RKC)-4S (0 or 3)
4NT (ask Q)-6D (yes but no K)
p

Let's just hope I'm not playing matchpoints.

edit: actually I guess North could RKC over 3D, instead of hanging around with 4D, with controls in each suit he has no reason to hang around.

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

Playing our version of weak no trump acol:

1♥-2♦ (10+, not GF)
2♥-3♦ (we play this forcing)
3♠(stop, no trump probe, no club stop)-4♣(cue, initially agrees ♥ for keycard)
4♦(high card cue)-4♠(keycard in hearts)
5♣(1/4)-5♦(Q♥?)
5♠(yes and K♠)-6♥

This is not perfect as partner might have a stiff K♦ in a 4513 where a club lead causes a big problem.

[lowerline]

1♥-2♦
2♥-3♦
4♦-4nt
5♣-6♦
p

[fromageGB]

For me, 1♥ 2♦(GF), ♦3 3♥ is choice of games so on this hand I am happy as South with a club singleton to rebid 3♦. Then North ace asks.
1♥ 2♦(GF 5+)
3♦ 4♥(ace ask)
4♠(one or three of five) 6♦
As South opened with no more than one ace, North takes a reasonable gamble on having ♥K and being able to set up hearts if needed for club discards. Failing that, discarding on a spade may do, or there may be no club losers. But it is a gamble.

It is not sufficient for North to bid 4♦ because he cannot expect South to be able to see 12/13 tricks if his hearts are not solid. Playing in diamonds, North has to ask.

Easier if South rebids 2♥:
1♥ 2♦
2♥ 3♥
3♠("non-serious 3NT") 4♣(serious intent, asking for a control in diamonds)
4♦(A or K - never singleton or void in partner's suit) 4♠(ace ask)
4NT(one or three) 5♣(♥Q?)
5NT(yes,and ♠K) 6♥

edit - but this, too, is risky as Cyberyeti points out. Not a perfect slam hand, but I think the North hand too good not to try.

[kenrexford]

This auction exposes a potential problem in cuebidding methods that perhaps should be addressed. When Responder's 2/1 suit is one under Opener's suit, a fit cannot be established for Opener's major short of the three-level, which then means that any "cuebid" of Responder's first suit will usually be in the position of a Last Train call. Thus, the suit often most important to cuebid ends up buried in ambiguity.

Accordingly, it seems to me that in this auction type (whether 1♥-P-2♦ or 1♠-P-2♥ as the start), picture jumps should probably be relaxed substantially from what I usually use as defaults (very strictly defined picture jumps). With that modification (which I now think critical):

1♥-2♦(GF)
2♥-3♠(Picture splinter -- good (honor) heart fit, stiff, two of the top three diamonds)

This start lets Opener count 11 tricks, needing only a side Ace for the slam. 3NT serious would allow a club "control" of 4♣ (could be a King), after which 4♦ (Last Train) should get the slam bid (probably in diamonds if IMP scoring).

[Zelandakh]

kenrexford, on 2013-November-19, 06:58, said:

Thus, the suit often most important to cuebid ends up buried in ambiguity.

Is it not a simpler solution just to use Asking Bids instead? Now if you have an open side suit you can ask there and still find out about the second suit control situation later, or if not proceed directly to asking about the key suit. Either way you are going to be placed reasonably.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Similar to Ahydra's auction ( post # 2 ) except 4D = Minorwood since suit agreement was at the 3-level.
Opener ( South ) replies 1 key card and North bids the 6D slam .

[Zelandakh]

1♥ = up to 17, 5+ hearts, unbal
... - 1♠ = INV+ relay
1NT = min, 0-3 spades
... - 2♣ = GF relay
2♥ = 6+ hearts, no other 4 card suit
... - 2♠ = relay
2NT = 3 spades
... - 3♣ = relay
3♥ = 3 diamonds
... - 3♠ = relay
3NT = 3631
... - 4♣ = relay
5♣ = ♥KQ + ♠K + ♦K, denies ♠Q
... - 6NT

This time NT is conveniently right-sided.

[kenrexford]

Zelandakh, on 2013-November-20, 07:47, said:

Is it not a simpler solution just to use Asking Bids instead? Now if you have an open side suit you can ask there and still find out about the second suit control situation later, or if not proceed directly to asking about the key suit. Either way you are going to be placed reasonably.

That's a difficult question to answer, as it involves weights of entirely unrelated structures and thus too many questions. But, it seems that the core problem probably still exists because a common question to ask will involve the one-under suit. If you ask about that suit directly, you lose space to ask or show anything else. If you ask first about something else, you either lose lttc or lose showing the one-under or have ambiguity. If the idea is that you don't need lttc then there's no problem for you, but my comments are for those who want lttc.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2013-November-20, 08:40, said:

1♥ = up to 17, 5+ hearts, unbal
... - 1♠ = INV+ relay
1NT = min, 0-3 spades
... - 2♣ = GF relay
2♥ = 6+ hearts, no other 4 card suit
... - 2♠ = relay
2NT = 3 spades
... - 3♣ = relay
3♥ = 3 diamonds
... - 3♠ = relay
3NT = 3631
... - 4♣ = relay
5♣ = ♥KQ + ♠K + ♦K, denies ♠Q
... - 6NT

This time NT is conveniently right-sided.

If you think the opps are going to leave you alone in this auction ... P-1♥-P-1♠-X/2♠-?-3♣(fit) or 4♠ etc

[Zelandakh]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-20, 08:50, said:

If you think the opps are going to leave you alone in this auction ... P-1♥-P-1♠-X/2♠-?-3♣(fit) or 4♠ etc

Indeed, (P) - 1♥ - (P) - 1♠; (X) - P - 3♠ would certainly make life much more awkward than in the undisturbed auction. Against that, I fancy our chances of picking up some juicy bonuses later in the match if the opp continues to double 1 level contracts with Axxxx and out without any knowledge of the way the suit is dividing (and they will get plenty of opportunities for such action).

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2013-November-20, 09:03, said:

Indeed, (P) - 1♥ - (P) - 1♠; (X) - P - 3♠ would certainly make life much more awkward than in the undisturbed auction. Against that, I fancy our chances of picking up some juicy bonuses later in the match if the opp continues to double 1 level contracts with Axxxx and out without any knowledge of the way the suit is dividing (and they will get plenty of opportunities for such action).

We'd open the E hand 2♠ so you'd be really guessing

I'd only even consider the double as a passed hand.

[Zelandakh]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-20, 09:07, said:

We'd open the E hand 2♠ so you'd be really guessing

At these colours I would open the East hand 2♠ as well. But those kinds of auctions are close to impossible to write down with all 4 hands available.

[mike777]

1h=2d
2h(6)=3h
4d=4s(rkc in h)
5c(1-4)=5d(qh ask)
5s(KS/QH)=6h

or

1h=2d
2h=3d
4d=4h(rkc in d)
4nt(1-4)=6d

[broze]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-18, 07:34, said:

3♠(stop, no trump probe, no club stop)

Interesting that you should mention this, I have been thinking recently about this exact situation which only really occurs when the level of the auction is at 3♦. You don't have enough room for all your probing: what do you do with a club stop but no spade stop? Also (slightly less of) an issue in auctions like 1S-1N-2D-3D-.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2013-November-20, 09:24, said:

At these colours I would open the East hand 2♠ as well. But those kinds of auctions are close to impossible to write down with all 4 hands available.

Just shorter, 2♠-3♥-4♠-6♥ I'd be prepared to guess.

[mike777]

broze, on 2013-November-20, 09:45, said:

Interesting that you should mention this, I have been thinking recently about this exact situation which only really occurs when the level of the auction is at 3♦. You don't have enough room for all your probing: what do you do with a club stop but no spade stop? Also (slightly less of) an issue in auctions like 1S-1N-2D-3D-.

wht is the range of 3d?

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2013-November-20, 09:49, said:

wht is the range of 3d?

For us GF.

[broze]

Basically I came to my usual conclusion that stoppers are for children.

I think it is wrong to use 3♠ as specifically "S stop, club doubt" and use it more generally as "doubt about NT" so you will bid 3S without a stop in either black suit or with a generally flimsy hand. With a stopper in one of them just bid 3NT; this gives less away and the opponents might not find the right lead anyway.