[jillybean]

Arclight, I have to agree with Wayne and Steve.

You are talking about the BIL, a welcoming place for beginners to play and learn, of course you are going to see a lot of mistakes! We’d do better playing at a table with Adv/Exp but that doesn’t happen too often in the MBC. We always need more mentors, people who would be willing to sit down and play with BIL'ies.

I don’t believe b/i’s learn signaling, leads, carding until much later on, my experience anyway. (I’m still waiting for my lesson on signaling )

I do agree on your comment about conventions, I love to collect them, it’s a way to show off. Our partners will do well to decipher the abbreviations let alone play them, (I can't!)

jillybean2

[ArcLight]

Concerning BIL (to rebuff sceptic, and badderzboy)

1) Count signals - for a while I asked people if they use them. Without exception no one did. Not a single one.
Despite what Sceptic or Badderzboy says I have never met anyone there who uses them. Maybe they use Count and play together, and are the only ones?

Badderzboy didnt read my post correctly, I said few use Attitude, not no one uses attitude. I’ve lead from AK and had pards play low when holding Qxx.



2) Some people have a ton of conventions listed, yet they misapply them. Such as messing up a Blackwood response (or RKCBW). Or mistaking a splinter for a cue bid!


BB>Yes, the way to learn is by experience and getting something wrong is the best way to get it right and so do Adv+ I suspect!

Conventions are best learned one at a time, not 10 at a time.


BB>The initial excitement of the game is I need all these gadgets then after a while you learn you rarely need them! Part of the learning curve and should be more prevalent in BIL so what?

So what? Try learning a few correctly. The initial excitement of the game for me is not learning a ton of conventions, its figuring out whats going on. Its realizing that that Q9xx is worth a lot because its sitting over the defender who has that suit. Its realizing you have an endplay, or a squeeze exists. Its about deductive reasoning, not a game of language.


Sceptic>2/. WHAT DO YOU EXPECT IN A BEGINERS INTERMEDIATE LOUNGE?

I expect them to be taught a few and then learn to use them well. I can accept mistakes, but if you are constantly messing up slam bidding, you should probably work on that, before trying to learn lots of other conventions. And learning Puppet Stayman is less important than signaling and carding correctly.


4) People blasting into Blackwood without cue bidding, only to be set when they find they are off 2 Aces.

BB2>Cue-bidding is for experienced pairs not pick-up too much chance of misunderstanding !!!

I completely disagree. Cue bidding is VERY VERY important. Slams are worth a lot. Work on cue bidding before learning Puppet Stayman, Jacoby 2NT, and inverted minors. Cue bidding isnt some magic, nor very difficult.
You can buy a decent book "Cue Bidding to Slams" by Klinger for $10 off overstock.com.

sceptic>4/. WHAT IS A CUE BID?

I’m not sure how to interpret your question. (at first I assumed it was a joke but I’m not sure).
A control showing bid, showing 1st and 2nd (and rarely 3rd) round control of a suit. Its the bread and butter of slam bidding, not just blasting into Blackwood.
(btw Blackwood himself used cue bidding!)


5) Few use standard carding, such as following with the lowest of touching honors from a sequence. Or leading 4th best (or whatever lead convention you like)

BB2>Cannot agree at all with that comment !!! Most do

No they dont. I see all sorts of random leads. Im not saying that no one cards correctly, just few do.

BB2>BIL is with Vugraph one of the best places on BBO which is the best place to play and learn this game especially given the opportunity to see new ideas and systems from elsewhere in the world!

Its better than others. But Im still disappointed that signaling and carding are not emphasized.



jillybean>
I don’t believe b/i’s learn signaling, leads, carding until much later on, my experience anyway. (I’m still waiting for my lesson on signaling )

Signaling is not rocket science. Try "How to Defend a Bridge Hand" by Bill Root.
Signaling will force you to pay closer attention to the game, and to develop good habits. Knowing 1000 conventions is less important than being able to count.


jb>I do agree on your comment about conventions, I love to collect them, it’s a way to show off. Our partners will do well to decipher the abbreviations let alone play them.

Its fun to learn some conventions, no doubtt about it. But I think it keep splayers from concentrating on the fundamentals, like carding and counting.

[end of post deleted]

This post has been edited by inquiry: 2005-January-30, 09:05

[mpefritz]

Declarer play, defense, and bidding all intertwine with one another.

A convention is nice to learn for the beginning player because it can be used in a recognizable situation. It gives them a sense of "ok, here it is during this hand, and I can do something productive. I will pull out my 2H card after my partner opened 1NT and I will make..TADA.. a transfer. YES!! Am I good or what!!" A small part of the game has been mastered. Well..until another bid is needed once partner accepts the transfer

However, certain declarer play and defensive play techniques are not as obvious as when they should be used. The hand doesn't say "3-3 Split or finesse problem" to the beginner. Only by knowing all the choices can someone decide how to play or defend a hand.

COUNTING is a skill to be learned from day one.

To apply the counting, though, one must understand the bidding of the opponents, partner's defensive signals, and declarer play technique -- once again wrapping the topics together.

I do agree that card play should be stressed by playing asking playing asking playing asking playing asking... The gains in card play may not seem as tangible, though, at the table due to the nature of bridge where a good play can be punished and bad play gets rewarded.

fritz -- a frequent rewardee

[badderzboy]

Guilty too of defending my fellow BILlies

People should ironically learn to bid first (priority 1 get to right(ish) place )and defend (we defend twice as much as we declare) but ...

In terms of learning - Defence tends to be the last thing to learn as we all love to be declarer so we hone skills there. There are some excellent works by Kelsey on defence but you need the rudiments of the bidding to understand what opps bidding means so u have a clue what they have and what your partner is likely to have too after seeing dummy...

Signalling - LTPB2 has a great section on Attitude/Count and when to use them - BUT you need to play them with a regular partner and agree which type - I play Lavinthal with one set of partners - Revolving with another and none with a less experienced partner who is learning revolving. I play Suit preference when giving a ruff too again it's in LTPB2 I think (Thx Fred v much for LTPB2 transformed my game in places!)...

Conventions - we start off loving gadgets then forget most of them as we never use them apart from : stayman / transfers / blackwood of some description I also play U2NT. Michaels, Puppet Stayman, splinters & cue-bidding, neg dbls, UCBs, Grand Slam Force, Landy and ( Transfer Leb hopefully soon) and that's about it I 'know' others but I can't remember last time I used them and yes I know how to respond effectively to them all as does my fellow BILlies I regularly play with.

Leads - hard to tell when watching someone there are different lead methods so they MAY play them some lead K from AK, some people lead 3 & 5ths etc, some play MUD from xxxx others always 4th highest and yes people underlead A's - I got a top f2f playing against a good pair who underled the A hehehe so not restricted to BILlies...

In terms of teaching - the f2f class I go to has players who are equivalent to BILlies and the teacher has been covering Card Play both Defence and technique and it is hard work for most. I think it's the hardest to teach too and hard to 'make' up demo hands.

Online, card play is well covered post tourneys with the teachers explaining when they can various techniques when they review the hands and MEMTI I think tends to have prepared hands.

Finally, I agree with Justin - your effort depends on your goals - My first was to get onto the Roll of Honour in the comps at my local club ( did it winning below Masters tourney in my 1st year!) now I aim to teach in about 5 years time and win a local competition(years away lol) and who knows after that...

Steve

[hallway]

I have lost count of the initiatives I have tried - to provide help/classes for the BEGINNERS.

I can protect the Intermediates from the Advanced by virtue of membership but I cannot protect the Beginners from the Intermediates. I cannot restrict tables to beginners only . I cannot prevent private chat during a lesson.

Teachers have tried. I have tried. Beginners are naturally unsure and if they are very new to bridge it is all a mystery - ask a simple valid beginner question and their screen lights up with dozens (often sarcastic) comments from the oh so knowledgable Intermediate. Condition red and no coaxing on my part gets them back Each Sunday I hold a Beginner tournament - called BEGINNER - table description BEGINNERS only ONLY Beginners !!! - last Sunday I inadvertently made it Club restricted instead of Level restricted - 50% of those who entered were Intermediates !!

I despair Any and all ideas on what and how to provide for BEGINNERS welcomed.

Maybe there is a willing Expert reading this who would like to take up the challenge - ? Mini bridge for Beginners ?

Having said that though I must acknowledge a growing group of Intermediates who have taken on board the BIL philosophy for helping newcomers to 'find their feet' and do help and encourage newcomers, playing with them, holding help tables etc.

The BIL membership is extremely fortunate to have such a great team of Teachers willing to give of their time week after week to help the members to become better players . Each teacher will do that which they enjoy ! and why shouldn't they? Countless hours are spent preparing hands/text as well as the online time.
In addition to the open lessons numerous hours are given each week by the Honorary members holding small group and individual mentoring.

No BIL member has to attend any lessons. No BIL member has a right to EXPECT anything - Arclight BBO is a gift to bridge. The BIL is a gift to bridge. When you pay a membershsip fee and/or pay the teacher for their tutelage then and only then can you - expect .

The BIL's creed for BEGINNERS:-

1. Honour your Partner. Bridge is a game of partnership. You are but one half of a whole. If you cannot accept that then take up Solataire.

2. Learn to play the cards. Work hard on your card skills - play the cards badly and bidding the right contract is worthless. Play the cards badly in defence and you will gift the opps a bad contract.

3. Learn the BASICS Decide on the System you want to use, they all have 'essential' conventions. Learn it thoroughly. "learn to bake the cake before you try to ice it !!"

4. Learn Partnership Defence You will find yourself defending far more often than Declaring. Learning to work as a team on defence will see your scores improve dramatically - but first you must know 1,2 and 3 !

Every member who joins is immediately given the Tools to do those things.

1. BIL Rule - Zero Tolerance for poor table behaviour
2. Buy Bridgemaster 2000 (Audrey Grant version for Beginners) Seek out the BIL teaching sessions that include card play
3. Download Learn to Play Bridge 1 (link provided) Seek out the BIL teaching sessions that focus on the System you have chosen
4. Download Learn to Play Bridge 2 (link provided) Seek out the BIL teaching sessions that include card play
and check out the Links and Book sections

You can take the horse to water ---- butttt will it drink ?????!!!!!!

PS - the BIL though is not all about those who want to become Advanced >+ .learning, learning, learning. It is there too for those who simply want to enjoy a social game, 'mistakes' and all.

[TimG]

Jlall, on Jan 29 2005, 02:00 PM, said:

If TimG is correct and bridge is taught in this way because that's how it has always been taught, maybe its time for some sort of reform.

I think there is a reform going on: EasyBridge (and others like it) teach play first, auction later.

[ArcLight]

>Arc, may be we got off on the wrong foot, That was not a personal attack,

Of course it was. You directly insulted me, rather that simply trying to refute my post. I have no problem with your disagreeing with me.

> I was defending the percieved low standards you have of BILies, or more to the point, I think your post was quite arrogant and if some of the people you have played with read that, I doubt they would want you sittiing at their table.

The BILies I've dealt with mostly seem like a good group of people. But I'm still disappointed that without execption none of them use Count. And my post wasn't a criticism just of BILies, I've played elsewhere too. Its more focused on "Learn fundamentals before you spend a lot of time learning lots of conventions"


>BILies = people who don't get it right, people that make mistakes, people that need guidance, most important people that are learning.

I have no problem with that at all. Thats why I play there.
Doesn't mean they should not work on fundamentals at an early stage.


>There is an interesting point from all this, though, I think play and defence is more interesting and more fun than conventions and I like to read about that side of the game rather bidding aspects

One simply can't defend or declare properly without counting. You can muddle your way through (like me, because I cant count effectively) or learn to count and make and set alot more contracts.

Being able to count at least puts you on a level where you can really enjoy the game and have a chance at otherwise unmakable contracts or defense.



As for "teaching BILies" I have tried pointing things out. And one one occasion I was told "not to lecture pard". Since I don't want to be viewed as a "bad boy" I try not and offer advice, unless its something egregious, like underleading Aces.

Anything I have to say I've learned from books, so rather than me teaching anything I suggest books for a player to read.

I'm currently reading a great beginner book I happened to see at the Library.
"Winning Deeclarer Play" by Dorothy Hayden. Well written and presented. Lots of hands and problems and mini lessons. Very nice small sectioon on card combinations.

[keylime]

Teaching beginners and intermediates is a very specialized science. It requires the fusion of a kindergarten teacher and a skilled craftsman to get the player to improve. You'll be amazed what questions I get asked daily....

With that said, I can honestly say that there is a significant deficiency in the BIL's membership, when it comes to learning....because they don't know WHAT and HOW to learn what they need to progress!!! They see the BIL, they apply to Maureen, they get membership, and then they start attended the plethora of free and low-cost classes the BIL offers. So far, so good.

However, many of them get to a point in their development, where they want to get better, they want to improve, but they simply don't have the mechanism of bridge language to say "Dwayne, I can't bid in competition to save my life" or "Dwayne, my slam bidding stinks so bad I can't even count my aces and kings right". Why is that?

It's because learning bridge is just like learning a foreign language. It starts with the "greetings" like "pass", 1NT being 15-17, and 2C being strong (using SAYC as a guide). Then the dreaded verb conjugations of "to be" and "to go" via the Stayman and Jacoby Transfers. We continue to add on our verb and noun knowledge with negative doubles, basic declarer/defense play of 3rd hand high and hi-lo for even, and then....

As in Spanish/French II with "past tense", we start learning the "needed conventions" like DONT/Capp, RKC, Jacoby 2NT, rule of 11 versus 4th best leads, honor sequence leads, and so on. Just like in language, these treatments get mislearned often because like conjugations we forget the accents and spelling, just like we forget the responses and follow-ons to conventions.

Then it gets WORSE - we start realizing that just like in language with future, imperfect, and other complicated verb tenses, bridge gives us conventions and concepts like NAMYATS and McCabe adjuncts and CRASH over strong club. For play, it's counting and breaking up endplays and trying to determine with two suited overcalls where the missing queens and jacks are.

It is therefore no wonder that so many BIL members are "perceived" to have NO clue of what they list on their profile. It's because each and every member of the BIL is at different points of their bridge learning; i.e. they speak different levels of the same language, which has different dialects due to regional influences.

What can be done about it? Very simple:

1. Attend more classes AND TAKE NOTES.
2. Buy the right kind of books and/or software.
3. Feel that asking a BIL mentor isn't a feat of great courage; it's an act of great desire that should be championed.
4. Grow in the "language" of bridge, by using the "language" often and getting the "verb tenses" wrong. This means, don't be afraid to screw up. :-) It's how you will learn.

Take it from someone that went through over a year of classes to learn Korean in the U.S. Air Force - it is TOUGH to learn and be proficient in a foreign language. Same principle applies in bridge.

[hrothgar]

When I am teaching, I very much try to emphasize declarer play and defense before Bidding. Bidding conventions are tools to allow a partnership to arrive at the best contract or, conversely, to prevent the opponents from reaching theirs. If players don't know what a good contract is, all the bidding tools in the world aren't goiing to help them. The reason that I like mini-bridge is that it allows players to focus from day 1 on the most important aspects of the game...

With this said and done, I understand why many traditional teaching programs choose to emphasize bidding first. Bidding is the first step that occurs in the game. It seems "natural" to start teaching it to players. Equally significantly, many people interprete conventions "atomic", existing in and of themselves with not relationship to the rest of the system. As a result, they use conventions to create little self-contained lessons. This can be attractive in designing a teaching program...

[hallway]

"low cost classes" who/where/what /when ???? - all are FREE !!!!

[pdmunro]

Quote

it is very hard to play the cards correctly, when no one points out your mistakes.  (sceptic Jan 29 2005, 01:46 AM)

Mistake: is it the funniest word in the English language?

For some reason, I find any sentence with the word "mistake" in it, hilarious. On the little packets of sugar, is the message: "Experience teaches us to recognize our mistakes when we repeat them". What a nightmare: endlessly repeating one's mistakes. You've gotta laugh, or you'll cry.

Of course, it's not true - I hope. The true sequence is: repeat, recognize, repeat, recognize ... (fill in the number of years) ... fix.

There is a line from a movie: "I have only ever made one mistake in my life. It was back in (fill in the year). That mistake was thinking I had made a mistake". You gotta laugh at the egotism captured in that line.

BBO definitions (the endless debate)

Beginner: someone who makes lots of mistakes, and fails to recognize most of them.

Expert: someone who makes few mistakes, and immediately recognizes them.

Any tradesman we hire, we expect to be an expert and make few, if any, mistakes. We don't want the house to fall down.

Is making mistakes a key step in learning?

I can remember the day when I lead small from K Q x x . Declarer held A J - so I gave him a trick. It was perhaps not the first time I had done it, but it was the first time that a flashing light came on: "Error alert! Error alert!". I asked advice from a better player. He said, that with K Q x x, you have to lead the K. I had known to lead the K from K Q J x, but hadn't known that it was also the best lead from K Q x x.

Survive your mistakes

Some big-time baseballers, who earn more money while putting on their sox than I do in a week, never make mistakes. It is always the fault of the bat, or the wind, or the ... This is the way they maintain their supreme self-confidence.

The only problem with online bridge is that I have to learn new excuses for my play. I cannot use my offline favourites: "sorry partner ... my spade got mixed in with my clubs" or "that woman touched me on the knee, and I completely lost it" or ... :-)

Who's at fault?

I have only one rule about bridge arguments: I can never win them.

I learnt that lesson from my partner at our local club. It took me a while to realize that he just enjoyed the whole argumentative process. I think he learnt that game on his mother's knee.

[Free]

Imo, there's a one-way street between the 2 main parts of bridge:

good play => better bidding

not the other way around. If you can play a hand like it should be played, then you'll use that experience in your bidding as well. You'll be able to evaluate your hand better, since you know from the past what defenders might start with to defeat you if you bid too high.

That's why, imo, it's better to let them play some first, get them to play sharp contracts, learn them what possibilities they have to make more tricks,... Once they know that, you can learn them a lot easier how to get to these right contracts. They already know their limits in cardplay, and they'll already use that in their judgement. They will not be blind about HCP! They'll see that Qxx or Kx in front of an overcall in that suit is worthless. This way, I think, you create openminded beginners with a lot better handevaluation than others who begin with bidding, learn to count their HCP, and get to insane contracts.

Better handevaluation means better contracts, and since they can play them already, they'll have better results and enjoy the game a lot more than when they always end up in the last 3 pairs.