[RunemPard]

Non-2/1...but also interested in 2/1 approaches.

Rather than bidding Jacoby/Splinters/Limits all the time...I would like to learn how to handle them more accurately.

1M-??

Let's say we have major support and a decent 5 card side suit. I have always had trouble learning the "standard" approaches.

1M-xy
xy-2M

1M-xy
xy-3M(jump)

1M-xy
xy-4M(double jump)

1M-xy
xy-3M(no jump)

1M-xy
xy-4M(jump)

1M-xy
xy-4SF
xy-bid pards major



So...basically, how do we handle invites, MIN GF, stronger hands, and even hands with maybe 2 card support?

Thanks,

Don

[awm]

Here'd what Elianna and I play, which is basically SAYC:

1M-xy
xy-2M

Doubleton support, invitational, not forcing.

1M-xy
xy-3M(jump)

GF 3(+?) card support.

1M-xy
xy-4M(double jump)

GF, picture jump (3-card support, good 5+ side suit, not much outside)

1M-xy
xy-3M(no jump)

If a new suit is available at the three-level, GF 3(+?) card support. If not (i.e. 1♠-2♥-3♦-3♠) then could be doubleton if stuck.

1M-xy
xy-4M(jump)

As with the 4M double jump.

1M-xy
xy-4SF
xy-bid pards major

Normally honor-doubleton in a GF hand.

Note that limit raises bid 1M-3M (actually Elianna and I play 2NT limit+ and put some LR hands through there). Hands with 4-card support and GF values normally bid 2NT or splinter.

[fromageGB]

For a 2/1 with a forcing NT with a decent 5 card suit and 3 card support:

Less than invitational :
If your 5 card suit is spades, 1♠ then 2♥
If your 5 card suit is hearts, 1NT then 2♠ unless opener bids hearts
If your 5 card suit is a minor, immediate 2M

Invitational :
As above, but then 3M, or 4M with shortage in 4th suit
(Alternatively, you may have a partnership agreement on another method, such as an initial 2M+2, or 2♣ followed by 2M)

GF:
You can bid 2/1, then just bid naturally until you are in game. Support M at second turn with 3 cards. Jump to 4M with minimum GF, 3 cards, good suit, nothing useful outside.

What you do with strong GF hands after the 2/1 depends on your treatment of opener rebids showing or denying extra strength.

I don't know of a way to show a good 5 card suit in an invitational hand with 3 card support. You choose either to show your 5 card suit (if you play 1NT then 3xy (or immediate 3xy) as invitational) or your 3 card support.

[Zelandakh]

awm, on 2013-November-02, 00:10, said:

1M-xy
xy-3M(no jump)

If a new suit is available at the three-level, GF 3(+?) card support. If not (i.e. 1♠-2♥-3♦-3♠) then could be doubleton if stuck.

Does this also apply when Opener's rebid is 2M, Adam? So, 1♠ - 2♣; 2♠ - 3♠. If so then you should probably explain what you do with an invitational hand at the same time.

My own approach works somewhat differently from 2/1 or traditional in that a new suit (other 1♠ over 1♥) is non-forcing. From this it follows that it is usually best to raise with 4 card support in a constructive (invite or better) hand immediately rather than showing the side suit along the way. Sometimes the side suit can be shown later. Similarly, weak hands with 3 card support raise immediately, because showing a side suit in a weak hand risks being passed there. That leaves invitational and GF 3-card raises. These start with a relay (1♥ - 1♠ or 1♠ - 1NT) and either show support or relay on the next round. So 1♥ - 1♠; 1NT (min) - 2♥ and 1♠ - 1NT; 2♣ (min) - 2♠ are invitational 3 card raises. Within this context, making a (weak) change of suit followed by a jump in Opener's first suit shows extras based on distribution.

Obviously the above is a pretty serious divergence from Standard and should not just be bolted on without thinking about wider system implications. Adam's suggestions look normal for a system based on traditional 2 over 1 responses providing the response is a 2/1 and Opener's rebid is a new suit. Some Acolites still play it that a 2/1 followed by 2 of Opener's major is a minimum 2/1 (8-10) and a jump to 3M a proper invite but I doubt any other system has that; and even within Acol many have switched over to requiring more for a 2/1 response and can therefore play this 3M rebid as GF. Also note that if you do not play a forcing raise (Jacoby, et al) then you might need more jumps to 4M as delayed game raises (DGRs). I would strongly recommend having a forcing raise though.

[fromageGB]

Zelandakh, on 2013-November-02, 08:37, said:

Does this also apply when Opener's rebid is 2M, Adam? So, 1♠ - 2♣; 2♠ - 3♠. If so then you should probably explain what you do with an invitational hand at the same time.

AWM : also what if opener rebids lower than 2M, say 1♠ 2♦(not GF) 2♥? 2♠ shows 2 cards, but 3♠ is GF, so 2♠ may be either 2 or 3 card?

[awm]

We make limit raises with limit raises. So there is no 3-card invite possible in a 2/1 bid. Also note that 1M-2x-2M does not by any means promise six (we need to bid this with minimums as a "slow-down" bid on many occasions). So:

1M-2x-2M-3M = 3-card support, GF
1M-2x-2y-2M = 2-card support, INV
1M-3M = 3+ support, INV
1M-2N = 3+ support, INV; or 4+ support GF

1M-2x-2M-2NT = INV, could be 2-card support (or fewer); note 2M doesn't promise six so we don't bid 3M on two.

[lowerline]

2/1 is very different from 1/1 even when it is not GF...

1H-1S
1nt-2H 6-9 doubleton if playing CBS, 10-11 3crd otherwise

1H-1S
1nt-3H 10-11 4S3H if playing CBS, GF+ 3crd otherwise

1H-1S
2m-2H 6-9 doubleton

1H-1S
2m-3H 10-11 3crd

1M-2x
2y-2M Hx or better if playing 2/1, any xx possible and 10-11 otherwise

1M-2x
2y-3M(jump) 3crd, GF+ even when not playing 2/1

1M-2x
2M-3M 10-11 3crd when not playing 2/1, GF otherwise but 2crd or 3crd depending on style

1M-2x
xy-3M(non-jump) 2crd possible, always GF

Jump to 4M when 3M would have been GF is a picture bid

1H-1S
2m-4SF
any-3H GF+ (minimal GF would have jumped to 4H on previous round)

1M-2x
2y-4SF
any-3M doubleton COG (2/1, then 4SF, then support must show doubt IMHO)

Steven