[eagles123]

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secondary question, south's hand is

Spoiler

QT9542
KJ93
K
T3

is it better to bid 4D to show tolerance for both majors and then correct any heart bid to spades? i.e to indicate this kind of shape? or is 4s correct

thanks,

Eagles

[Cyberyeti]

I seem to have exactly what partner would expect so far, pass (forcing) and let partner decide, it's actually still not clear whose hand it is.

Spoiler

I know the K♦ is revolting, but I would have opened the N hand 1♠ so wouldn't have this problem. W would have to come in over 1♠-P-2N/3♣ and I would get to subside in 4♠ I suspect which could be good or bad depending on where Q♣ is.

Edit: Pass is forcing because over a preempt, partner has bid game to make, you don't preempt over a preempt.

[eagles123]

probably a N/B question, but why would pass be forcing here?

[eagles123]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-September-29, 04:50, said:

I seem to have exactly what partner would expect so far, pass (forcing) and let partner decide, it's actually still not clear whose hand it is.

Spoiler

I know the K♦ is revolting, but I would have opened the N hand 1♠ so wouldn't have this problem. W would have to come in over 1♠-P-2N/3♣ and I would get to subside in 4♠ I suspect which could be good or bad depending on where Q♣ is.

Edit: Pass is forcing because over a preempt, partner has bid game to make, you don't preempt over a preempt.

don't understand this: Pass is forcing because over a preempt, partner has bid game to make, you don't preempt over a preempt.

surely p could have say 6313 and 0 points given we're white vs red?

[ArtK78]

eagles123, on 2013-September-29, 04:55, said:

probably a N/B question, but why would pass be forcing here?

Hardly a N/B question, as many would not play the pass as forcing here, since South did not show strength, merely a desire to play in 4♠ opposite a takeout double.

Also, many do not play this as a forcing pass situation at this vulnerability. On the other hand, if the vulnerability were reversed, many would play it as a forcing pass situation.

I agree with Cyberyeti that North should pass, as he has what he is expected to have for his takeout double. Whether North's pass is forcing or not is an entirely different matter. I disagree that North's pass is forcing for the reason stated - that you are acting over a preempt. East's call was preemptive, but West's call is unclear. He could be bidding to save, or he could be bidding to make. The pass may be forcing or not forcing because the partnership has an agreement as to how to treat North's pass in this situation. It is more likely that this is an area of partnership agreement rather than one of general principals.

I suspect that if you ask 10 experts whether this is a forcing pass situation or not, you will get 11 different responses.

P.S. It is not very likely that West would be saving here, as a save could be very expensive at this vulnerability. That is why many do not play North's pass as forcing at this vulnerability.

[Cyberyeti]

ArtK78, on 2013-September-29, 05:22, said:

Hardly a N/B question, as many would not play the pass as forcing here, since South did not show strength, merely a desire to play in 4♠ opposite a takeout double.

Also, many do not play this as a forcing pass situation at this vulnerability. On the other hand, if the vulnerability were reversed, many would play it as a forcing pass situation.

I agree with Cyberyeti that North should pass, as he has what he is expected to have for his takeout double. Whether North's pass is forcing or not is an entirely different matter. I disagree that North's pass is forcing for the reason stated - that you are acting over a preempt. East's call was preemptive, but West's call is unclear. He could be bidding to save, or he could be bidding to make. The pass may be forcing or not forcing because the partnership has an agreement as to how to treat North's pass in this situation. It is more likely that this is an area of partnership agreement rather than one of general principals.

I suspect that if you ask 10 experts whether this is a forcing pass situation or not, you will get 11 different responses.

P.S. It is not very likely that West would be saving here, as a save could be very expensive at this vulnerability. That is why many do not play North's pass as forcing at this vulnerability.

I'm probably prejudiced by what we open weak 2s on including the 6313 (5314 even and we don't worry about side major either) zero count so partner can't have a preempt here. Our only bar in this seat is 2 aces, so I'd virtually write him down for 5+ shape or 6 spades, 2 aces and very little else given that we open our 1 bids pretty thin.

[mcphee]

Pass 4S, I have nothing to add other than a F pass.

[Fluffy]

I have an average double, which is better than a minimum but still not enough to act.

I don't think anyone would play pass as forcing, not at any vulnerability, but specially at this one it is truly wrong.


Good thing about 4♦: it helps partner to make decisions later on.