[Chamaco]

Hi all,
I have a questions for you all

After struggling for a while (without succes) with using 1C Precision opener with shape-first responses and asking bids, I and my pard have turned to control-show responses.

The scheme is very similar to Blue Club:

1D = negative
1H = GF, max 2 controls, at least a 5 bagger, opener rebids naturally (1NT is generic balanced, indepenently from range)
1S = GF, 3 controls, at least a 5 bagger, opener rebids naturally (1NT is generic balanced, indepenently from range)
1NT = GF, 4 controls, at least a 5 bagger; 2C by opener asks for 4 and/or 5 card majors, other bids natural;
2C= GF, 5+ controls, at least a 5 bagger; 2D by opener asks for 4 and/or 5 card majors, other bids natural;
(here I will skip higher responses, which include balanced and 4441 GF hands)

THE QUESTIONS

My questions is on how to raise opener's major in uncontested sequences such as:

Sequence a
1C:1H
1S/2H

Sequence b
1C:1S
2H/S

Sequence c
1C:1NT/2C
2H/S

We want a system to raise pard that should be:

1. EASY !!!
We gave up asking bids to make the system easier not more complicated
If we have to use a relay, there should be only 1 round of bidding to remember (after which bidding becomes natural again), not starting a sequence where each subsequent bid is linked to give distribution and /or other features.

2. EFFECTIVE
Ideally, raises should discriminate
a. good support/bad support (honors)
b. 3 card raises vs 4+ card raises
c. good side suit
d. shortness
e. extra values besides the controls already bid.

For the latter point we use "Serious 3NT", and we have used it without troubles so far in the pship.

As for the other issues (quality of support and shortness), I have tentatively proposed to use the following:

1- single raise: good trumps (at least Hxx)
2- 2NT is artificial (because when responder bids a positive control response he is not balanced; so holding NO support he can simply bid his 5 bagger) and shows a bad raise (xxx, occasionally Hx)
3- jump shift is splinter: one more question here: should the splinter show extras (QJ) besides the controls promised by first bid ? Or should it deny it ?
4 - jump raise (when available at the 3 level: this will happen only for spades): good trumps, extras
5- raise to game: UNDFINED YET


I would appreciate feedback from you folks, espcially in sequences (the majority) where opener starts showing his major at the 2 level (so that there is no jump available below game).

Thanks !!!

[inquiry]

Ok, since no one is trying, I will take a stab at this. First, I don't like the jumpshift as splinter. The reason why is it still leaves responder's five card+ suit as an unknown. Also, I am not wild about 2NT being bad fit. So let's rethink these fit bids.

How about, jump being fit jump. It is easy to remember, and your partner will always have a five card suit to bid (unless he has a five card fit). So in theory, he will always be capable of a fit jump. So you need to seperate fit jump from other type of raise, where fit jump was not used.

Second, I would go with the direct raise being weaker/weakest of fit bids (with the possible exception of jump to four of the major), and 2NT being a good/big fit. That is I think PFA needs to apply.

So what possible raises do you have. Fit jump, 2NT, direct 3 and 4 raise, and even direct 3NT. Also if a double jump shift is available, I guess you can place a definition on that as well.

How about something like this.

1♣-response-Major-4M = nothing extra, four card support. Rare beastie.
1♣-response-Major-3M = three card support, yuck. Opener relay ask for responders five card suit.
1♣-response-Major-jump in suit = good fit, picture jump with all controls in two bid suits.
1♣-response-Major-2NT = fit and force. Opener bids 4M as a warning too many controls missing. Opener bids 3♣ to suggest minimum hand, but promises sufficient controls to at least try for slam, opener bids 3♦ to ask for responders long suit, promises at least 10 controls. Show suit with hi,mid,lo steps (or however you like), next relay is for side suit shortness.
1♣-response-Major-3NT should be general balance with modest support (your doubleton high, or three small with good stuff in other suits) but extra's (use raise to 3 without extras.. if you show 5+ controls, does not have to be extras). Opener is allowed to pass, or signoff in 4 major, or introduce a new suit. Don't have too much extra or else use fit jump or bid your suit.

The trick here will be to define fit jump vesus the 2NT raise. You might decide the picture jump is limited to the promised controls, or you might decide the picture jump can have a side shortness. I think I would leave the picture jumps for 2-4-5-2 and 2-3-5-3 type hands. Going through 2NT otherwise.

Playing this way, most good fitting hands go through 2NT, and there will be inferences opener can draw by the lack of going the other way for placement of honors, etc. Don't know how useful this is, but 2NT is clearly not needed to show balanced hand by responder (he has an undisclosed five card suit). A second advantage, not raising pretty much denies support (although you could define something funky for refusal to raise directly with support).

Scoring: IMP

1c-1s-2h-4d-4h (know off two quick spades from picture fit jump... 6hearts was bid at four tables, and one table got to 5clubs... two pair missed game all together.

---

Scoring: IMP

1c-1s-2h-4d-4h (know off two quick spades from picture fit jump... 6hearts was bid at four tables, and one table got to 5clubs... two pair missed game all together.

---

Scoring: IMP

1c-1s-2h-4d-4h (know off two quick spades from picture fit jump... 6hearts was bid at four tables, and one table got to 5clubs... two pair missed game all together.

---

Scoring: IMP

1c-1s-2h-4d-4h (know off two quick spades from picture fit jump... 6hearts was bid at four tables, and one table got to 5clubs... two pair missed game all together.

---

Scoring: IMP

1c-1s-2h-4d-4h (know off two quick spades from picture fit jump... 6hearts was bid at four tables, and one table got to 5clubs... two pair missed game all together.

---

Scoring: IMP

1c-1s-2h-4d-4h (know off two quick spades from picture fit jump... 6hearts was bid at four tables, and one table got to 5clubs... two pair missed game all together.

---

Scoring: IMP

1c-1s-2h-4d-4h (know off two quick spades from picture fit jump... 6hearts was bid at four tables, and one table got to 5clubs... two pair missed game all together.

---

Scoring: IMP

1c-1s-2h-4d-4h (know off two quick spades from picture fit jump... 6hearts was bid at four tables, and one table got to 5clubs... two pair missed game all together.

---

Scoring: IMP

1c-1s-2h-4d-4h (know off two quick spades from picture fit jump... 6hearts was bid at four tables, and one table got to 5clubs... two pair missed game all together.

---

Scoring: IMP

1c-1s-2h-4d-4h (know off two quick spades from picture fit jump... 6hearts was bid at four tables, and one table got to 5clubs... two pair missed game all together.

---

Scoring: IMP

1c-1s-2h-4d-4h (know off two quick spades from picture fit jump... 6hearts was bid at four tables, and one table got to 5clubs... two pair missed game all together.

---

Scoring: IMP

1c-1s-2h-4d-4h (know off two quick spades from picture fit jump... 6hearts was bid at four tables, and one table got to 5clubs... two pair missed game all together.

---

[Chamaco]

Ty Ben for the suggestions !

A couple of points:

1) Actually reading the post, it occured to me that good hands could go via a "Martel 2NT" or Jacoby+ structure !

2) About jumpshifts:
I thought of using it as FSJ.
However, I liked the ability to show shortness controls: pard already knows the honor controls, and showing the singleton/void completes the picture in terms of controls.

One solution may be to use the cheapest JS (3S when H trumps or 3NT for spades) as undisclosed splinter à la Bergen, and 3NT(when trump is H), 4m and 4H(when trump is S) as good side suit.

3) finally, the question is: regardless of being splinter or FJS, should the JS show or deny extra values beside showing the distributional feature ?
I suppose it should show no substantial extras (e.g. no more than 3 hcp in Quacks); stronger hands would go via martel 2NT.

Does this all seem reasonable ?

[inquiry]

Well, surely 2NT should be jacoby 2NT+ like structure with known controls already thrown in. This is on reason why I liek the jump as fit jump, it focus those known controls in two suits, and denies a short suit. This is actually very powerful.. over 2NT, opener can 1) ask for short suit if controls are sufficient, 2) signoff if controls are not sufficient, and 3) knows responder has controls scattered in suits other than his and partners.

Take my suggestions as just that. I thought these up based upon bidding principles I like to use. I sort of like 2NT as good hand or good fit with controls in three or more suits (can include distributional controls). But then, I never like to preempt strong partner with jumps to four level, so I want that bid to be very descriptive. Fair to good support, good suit bid, and no contol in other two suits. Opener can usually place contract after that, or ask for missing info (usually trump queen).

Ben

[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Jan 24 2005, 01:47 PM, said:

3) finally, the question is: regardless of being splinter or FJS, should the JS show or deny extra values beside showing the distributional feature ? I suppose it should show no substantial extras (e.g. no more than 3 hcp in Quacks); stronger hands would go via martel 2NT.

Does this all seem reasonable ?

The more I think about this, the more I like it. But I am not certain that my last answer got to this across... so let me try again.

I don't like the splinter jump here...let's imagine an auction

1C-1S-2H-4D where 4D is a splinter jump.

Opener knows responder has 3 contols (1S), a heart fit (4D), and short diamonds (void? singleton?). Opener also knows that responder has a five card suit, but is it spades or clubs? Can he locate with any certainty where responders three controls are? Clubs? hearts? spades?

Compare this to, same auction
1C-1S-2H-4D where 4D where 4D is fit jump, that a) denies a side suit shortage, and promises three controls are in red suits. Also responder may not have wildly extra values. Opener is now much more likely to get the next bid "right"

This also allows you to use your 2NT forcing auction to ferret out responders long suit and his short suits through the use of 3D (you can reverse 3C and 3D if you like)... imagine...
1C-1S-2H-2N-3D-3H-3S-4C-?
3D=tell me your suit, 3H = hi long suit, here spades, 3S=tell me short suit, 4C=singleton diamond (you might adopt 1st short ask step as none, so 2245 but significant extra values, 2nd as hi singleton, 3rd as low singleton, 4th as hi void, 5th as lo void... something like that.... if you wanted to get fancy... or just hi and lo short and incorporate a reask for legnth of shortness if you care.

Ben

[hrothgar]

>1. EASY !!!
>We gave up asking bids to make the system easier not more complicated
>smile.gif If we have to use a relay, there should be only 1 round of bidding
>to remember (after which bidding becomes natural again), not starting a
>sequence where each subsequent bid is linked to give distribution and /or
>other features.

I think that you are in for a world of hurt...

Relay / Asking bid methods are are designed to be as easy as possible. While the systems look imposing, in reality they are normally based on consistent application of a small number of stock "recipes". In contrast, so-called "natural" systems feature a number of "weird" constraints (most noteably, bids should maintain a "natural" meaning). As a reuslt, you need to memorize also sorts of bizarre special cases, exceptions, and the like.

If you want things to be "easy" bite the bullet and learn an artificial system.

[Chamaco]

hrothgar, on Jan 25 2005, 03:50 PM, said:

If you want things to be "easy" bite the bullet and learn an artificial system.

Richard,
you and most of the BBF posters are by far better players than me, so I won't argue with your point of view

I only suspect that the standard of your partners is also much higher than both my level and my pard's ability to memorize bidding sequences.

Mauro

[Free]

Chamaco, on Jan 25 2005, 05:29 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Jan 25 2005, 03:50 PM, said:

If you want things to be "easy" bite the bullet and learn an artificial system.

Richard,
you and most of the BBF posters are by far better players than me, so I won't argue with your point of view

I only suspect that the standard of your partners is also much higher than both my level and my pard's ability to memorize bidding sequences.

Mauro

Mauro, this is where you're wrong. In a symmetric relay system, you don't have to memorize "bidding sequences"! The only thing you need to 'memorize' is modules (example: singlesuiter, twosuiter, threesuiter and balanced) and how you get there (which is quite simple). The modules are easy, because they have a very nice property: they're symmetric, the exact shapes are always bid with the same bid (example: any 5431 is bid with 3♦ in the end), and the most common hands are bid the lowest. So actually, you can just reconstruct the modules at the table if you want. This means you only have to memorize 1 little table with how you get to certain modules

My f2f partner had never played a strong ♣ system or a relay system before, and I suggested to immediatly play a relay system after our strong 1♣ opening. He agreed, and I gave him a full 2 pages : 1 with the relay-table, and 1 with modules and a pretty simple slam method (SlamPoint ask followed by denial cues). We've had some nice bidding, had the first 7♥ (with 29HCP) where everyone stayed in 6♥ (or lower) last week, and we've now specified the continuation after low-level RKC as well.
The first time I had to explain the table to him ofcourse, but in a week we already played this system without problems. I must mention that we both have quite a lot of spare time, so learning a few pages is no problem to us.
There are 2 main advantages for relay systems imo:
- simplicity: use a quite simple relay system (symmetric for example) and you can't make mistakes and you won't have bidding misunderstandings
- efficiency: your slam bidding improves bigtime, especially for grand slams
You don't need 1000s of asking bids, support bids, conventions,... You just need to bid steps, and make sure your partner knows when and what to bid, and that you know what he bids.

I've noticed you've posted a lot of questions about stuff after 1♣ openings, and I just think you have a wrong image of relays. It might seem incredibly difficult, but it actually isn't. You just don't think in bids anymore, but in steps. By now, your 1♣ opening must contain a lot of pages imo. As Richard, I'd suggest you just take a look at a relaysystem (the standard relaysystem from moscito is very simple) with your partner, and try to understand it and experiment a little with it. After a while you can make your decision what you'll play, but at least you have seen both sides and you'll be able to make a well funded decision.

[Chamaco]

Ok, Free,
just out of curiosity, could you send me those "2 pages" you gave to your f2f pard ?

Thanks !

My email is

m_casadei67*REMOVETHIS*@tin*REMOVETHISTOO*.it