[TimG]

There seems to be two ways to handle a 5M332 game forcing hand with Keri:

1) transfer to the major and follow with 2NT. If opener asks about shape with 3♣ , responder bids 3NT to show 5422 or 5332; if opener asks about shape with 3♦, responder bids 3NT to deny a four-card minor.

2) puppet to 2NT than bid 3♦ (4 or 5 hearts) or 3♥ (4 or 5 spades).

Does anyone know whether there is meant to be a difference between which 5M332 hands would use each of these approaches?

Tim

[whereagles]

Not sure about this, but probably the 2nd sequence shows a better suit than the 1st, so that opener can decide whether to play 3NT or 4M.

[mr1303]

This seems odd: I was told that in Keri GF hands with 5332 were dealt like this:


Transfer followed by 3NT shows 5332 with Q9xxx or worse in the suit.

Puppet then 2NT followed by a direct 3M after 3C would show 5 cards in that suit. 3D would be stayman.

Transfer followed by 2NT ALWAYS promises a 4 card minor

[whereagles]

There are two versions of keri out there:
- The original book version
- The improved version, presented by Ron (the_hog)

The confusion might be due to that.

[TimG]

whereagles, on Jan 31 2005, 10:24 AM, said:

There are two versions of keri out there:
- The original book version
- The improved version, presented by Ron (the_hog)

The confusion might be due to that.

Sorry, I should have said that I am working from the improved version.

I gave consideration to the suit quality issue, but opener cannot be sure whether responder has shown a bad suit or a 5422 hand when responder bids 3N over opener's 3♣ (1N-2♦/♥-2♥/♠-2N-3♣-3N).

Tim

[TimG]

mr1303, on Jan 31 2005, 10:20 AM, said:

This seems odd: I was told that in Keri GF hands with 5332 were dealt like this:


Transfer followed by 3NT shows 5332 with Q9xxx or worse in the suit.

That sequence now shows 4M333.

[Flame]

I have a simple quesion about the extended keri .
1NT-2C-2M does it show max 1nt with 5 card suit ?

[TimG]

Flame, on Jan 31 2005, 11:35 AM, said:

I have a simple quesion about the extended keri .
1NT-2C-2M does it show max 1nt with 5 card suit ?

Minimum 1NT with 5cM.

[Flame]

TimG, on Jan 31 2005, 11:39 AM, said:

Flame, on Jan 31 2005, 11:35 AM, said:

I have a simple quesion about the extended keri .
1NT-2C-2M does it show max 1nt with 5 card suit ?

Minimum 1NT with 5cM.

Thanks iv heard it before and it make sense but it doesnt look right with the full system, first after 1NT-2C-2M there is no way to invite game(2NT and 3M are not nat invite). Second after 1NT-2C-2D-2M, there is no bid with MAX 3S and 5H. Both this problems are solved if the 2M suppose to show max hand.

[TimG]

Flame, on Jan 31 2005, 11:44 AM, said:

TimG, on Jan 31 2005, 11:39 AM, said:

Flame, on Jan 31 2005, 11:35 AM, said:

I have a simple quesion about the extended keri .
1NT-2C-2M does it show max 1nt with 5 card suit ?

Minimum 1NT with 5cM.

Thanks iv heard it before and it make sense but it doesnt look right with the full system, first after 1NT-2C-2M there is no way to invite game(2NT and 3M are not nat invite). Second after 1NT-2C-2D-2M, there is no bid with MAX 3S and 5H. Both this problems are solved if the 2M suppose to show max hand.

Since opener has shown a minimum with his 2M rebid, there is no need for responder to have an invitational call available.

1N-2♣-2♦-2♥-3♠ shows max with 5 spades and 3 hearts.

1N-2♣-2♦-2♠-3♥ shows man with 5 hearts and 3 spades.

That is, after 1N-2♣-2♦-2M, 3oM shows 5oM and 3M.

Tim

[Flame]

TimG, on Jan 31 2005, 11:59 AM, said:

Flame, on Jan 31 2005, 11:44 AM, said:

TimG, on Jan 31 2005, 11:39 AM, said:

Flame, on Jan 31 2005, 11:35 AM, said:

I have a simple quesion about the extended keri .
1NT-2C-2M does it show max 1nt with 5 card suit ?

Minimum 1NT with 5cM.

Thanks iv heard it before and it make sense but it doesnt look right with the full system, first after 1NT-2C-2M there is no way to invite game(2NT and 3M are not nat invite). Second after 1NT-2C-2D-2M, there is no bid with MAX 3S and 5H. Both this problems are solved if the 2M suppose to show max hand.

Since opener has shown a minimum with his 2M rebid, there is no need for responder to have an invitational call available.

1N-2♣-2♦-2♥-3♠ shows max with 5 spades and 3 hearts.

1N-2♣-2♦-2♠-3♥ shows man with 5 hearts and 3 spades.

That is, after 1N-2♣-2♦-2M, 3oM shows 5oM and 3M.

Tim

Thanks good points, but in my document (given by ron) 1NT-2C-2D-2H-3S show 4S-2H and max , not 5S-3H

[TimG]

Flame, on Jan 31 2005, 12:08 PM, said:

[I]n my document (given by ron) 1NT-2C-2D-2H-3S show 4S-2H and max , not 5S-3H

In my document (not given by Ron, but derived from Ron's document), 1N-2♣-2♦-2♥-3♦ shows a maximum with two hearts and four or five spades.

I think one of our documents is outdated.

[Flame]

TimG, on Jan 31 2005, 12:26 PM, said:

Flame, on Jan 31 2005, 12:08 PM, said:

[I]n my document (given by ron) 1NT-2C-2D-2H-3S show 4S-2H and max , not 5S-3H

In my document (not given by Ron, but derived from Ron's document), 1N-2♣-2♦-2♥-3♦ shows a maximum with two hearts and four or five spades.

I think one of our documents is outdated.

Yes i guess you are right, in mine it say max 5S2H33, maybe ron can tell us something about this.

[TimG]

Flame, on Jan 31 2005, 12:29 PM, said:

TimG, on Jan 31 2005, 12:26 PM, said:

Flame, on Jan 31 2005, 12:08 PM, said:

[I]n my document (given by ron) 1NT-2C-2D-2H-3S show 4S-2H and max , not 5S-3H

In my document (not given by Ron, but derived from Ron's document), 1N-2♣-2♦-2♥-3♦ shows a maximum with two hearts and four or five spades.

I think one of our documents is outdated.

Yes i guess you are right, in mine it say max 5S2H33, maybe ron can tell us something about this.

We've touched on just about all these already, but just to get it all out there, after 1N-2♣-2♦-2♥, I have these rebids for opener's maximums:

3♦ = 2 hearts & 4 or 5 spades
3♥ = 3 hearts & fewer than 5 spades
3♠ = 3 hearts & 5 spades
3N = 2 hearts & fewer than 4 spades

I suspect my version is the most recent because it takes care of the glitch you pointed out.

Tim

PS Yes, where is Ron?

[MickyB]

TimG, on Jan 31 2005, 04:11 PM, said:

mr1303, on Jan 31 2005, 10:20 AM, said:

This seems odd: I was told that in Keri GF hands with 5332 were dealt like this:


Transfer followed by 3NT shows 5332 with Q9xxx or worse in the suit.

That sequence now shows 4M333.

This is also different from Ron's version, I think - transfer then 3NT is simple choice of games looking for a 4-4 fit, and 4333s go through 2♠.

[Flame]

In the version i have these are the maxs:
3H max, FG; 3H, no 5OM
4H max, 4H
3S max, FG; 4Ss, 2Hs
3NT max, 3-S2H
3D max 5S2H33