[cnszsun]

---

imp, white vs red,
RHO opened 3H, what will you bid? If you pass, LHO bid 4H, all passed to you, will you take action now?
I passed on first round, and bid 4S on next round. Do you agree with me?

[inquiry]

This hand is why I play Misho's meta overcalls against three level preempts. I can bid 4♦ over 3♥ to show spades and diamonds. Think of it as leaping michaels without the need to leap. We also use a double as "thrump" like (bid 3NT partner with a stopper), with minor one suiters (we can then pull to the minor if partner bids it and we are not happy). We also double with real takeout double hands.

This is the huge tradeoff, which causes some problems for meta... if your partner doubles, he has a either a hand that is looking for 3NT (generally a minor one suiter), or a real take out double. So what do you do with a stopper and four cards in the other major? If you bid the major, partner with a minor one suiter will bid 3NT which you then pull without a solid stopper (since you ahve wrong sided the contract)... but what if you have significant extra values? IF you bid 3S and he had a real takeout double, he is likely to pass and you miss 4S. If he had a minor one suiter, he will correct. What seems to work is just jump to 4S, and partner will run to his minor if he doesn't have that suit. So meta loses on some auctions, so you have to stike while you can on auctions like this one.

Not playing meta I will double and if partner bids 4C, pull to 4D, if he passes 4H I will pass too.

Ben

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Jan 12 2005, 02:12 PM, said:

This hand is why I play Misho's meta overcalls against three level preempts.

-- cut --

Not playing meta I will double and if partner bids 4C, pull to 4D, if he passes 4H I will pass too.

My doubt here is not about methods but on hand evaluation:
even using thrump doubles and Non Leaping Michaels, is it not too light to bid immediately over the 3H preempt ?

I was taught that to overcall a 3-level preempt I should have a *sound* opener, and even a minimum opener is not enough and is better off pasing even with a decent shape.

Here, even with a 55, hand is 7 loser-hand, more or less equivalent to a minimum opener, so, if following the above-mentioned criterion, would be better off passing ?

[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Jan 12 2005, 10:18 AM, said:

inquiry, on Jan 12 2005, 02:12 PM, said:

This hand is why I play Misho's meta overcalls against three level preempts.

-- cut --

Not playing meta I will double and if partner bids 4C, pull to 4D, if he passes 4H I will pass too.

My doubt here is not about methods but on hand evaluation:
even using thrump doubles and Non Leaping Michaels, is it not too light to bid immediately over the 3H preempt ?

I was taught that to overcall a 3-level preempt I should have a *sound* opener, and even a minimum opener is not enough and is better off pasing even with a decent shape.

Here, even with a 55, hand is 7 loser-hand, more or less equivalent to a minimum opener, so, if following the above-mentioned criterion, would be better off passing ?

We are white, they are red. How many tricks do you think the 3♥ bidder has at this vul? Assuming he is a bridge player, at this vul, he is looking at a likely 8 tricks for sure, probably nine. If his partner has anything they have game. If his partner has nothing, we have game and maybe slam in one of our fits. We would be unlucky only if we caught partner with bundle of clubs and no hcp, since they don't have slam (we have two aces),

I would not only bid 4♦ over 3♥, I would bid 4♦ over 2♥.

Let's imagine rho has eitght solid hearts.... at this vul and out. If his parnter is looking at diamnond ACE and nothing else, we make 5S. If his partner has diamond Ace and club King, we make 4S, they make 4H. If his partner has nothing, we make 6S, they are down two in 4H. If his partner has club King-Queen, spade King-Queen, and diamond ACE. We lose 2S, 1D, 1C, 1H for 4S down two, or 5D down three (depending upon which suit you fit in) when they can make 5H vul. The odds favor bidding here, ESPECIALLY if you can define your suits so nicely for your partner as with a meta/leaping micheals cue-bid.

BTW, I have been playing "liberal leaping michaels" from a long, long time before I even met misho (there was an article with this title in bridge world from late 1970's early 1980's). It is liberal because it required only about a fair 9 to 10 hcp iwht five-five distribution. I have made this very often over weak twos, and so far have never gotten a horrible result (once I could have gone for 1400 versus a non-making slam, but fortuantely they bid on to their slam and went down anyway). I am certainly willing to give up the occassional -800 to -1100 (haven't yet) due to the overwelming success I have had with this bid.

[mcphee]

The guy has created a horrible problem for you with 3H. Lets look at the options.
1. bid S now and go for digit, or maybe have something good happen.
2. bid D now intending to perhaps bid S later and go for digit, this time at a higher level.
3. do the hitch and hesitate pass so partner will know you have something. Clearly this way should be alertable.
4. Follow the theory that if you pass (in tempo) your partner may even be able to make an intelligent decision.
5. Wait and balance over 4H and go for bigger digit than #1, however equal to #2.

Now #6. which is pass, be dissappointed you were not kissed when this happens to you.

I look at this hand and really would love to act over 3H. I may indeed go for a number if I do. Color me chicken because this is exactly the hand that goes for 1100 or more, so I pay off in the cheap seats.

[helium]

mcphee, on Jan 12 2005, 09:37 AM, said:

3. do the hitch and hesitate pass so partner will know you have something. Clearly this way should be alertable.

This sounds like cheathing to me.
and i would X first time

[inquiry]

helium, on Jan 12 2005, 11:03 AM, said:

mcphee, on Jan 12 2005, 09:37 AM, said:

3. do the hitch and hesitate pass so partner will know you have something. Clearly this way should be alertable.

This sounds like cheathing to me.
and i would X first time

Bob meant it as a joke.... since this is what both unethical, and inexperienced players do with hands like this... the quick pass = no problem, the slow pass with a hithc and visible signs of discomfort means I have something. This is why the "skp bid" warning was invented. I wonder if we need some auto delay by an unpassed hand over any skip bid... so that...

3H-P <--- is always delayed at least 10 seconds...

But
1H-P-1S-P
3H <<----- no forced delay..... as that just waste everyone's time....

Anyway, I assure you Bob knew his suggestion was tounge in cheek and meant it to be covered in venom.

Ben

[Fluffy]

pass first time
4♠ reopening to me.

[mcphee]

Thanks Ben.

Yes it was meant to be a humorous look at the every day solution for many.

I really like your idea of the automatic pause for the cause over pre-empts.

[HeartA]

I would overcall 3S at the first round.

[pclayton]

Slow pass is mid-chart in ACBL, meaning you have to provide a recommended defense.



How about mini-ELC here?

[junyi_zhu]

cnszsun, on Jan 12 2005, 01:40 PM, said:

---

imp, white vs red,
RHO opened 3H, what will you bid? If you pass, LHO bid 4H, all passed to you, will you take action now?
I passed on first round, and bid 4S on next round. Do you agree with me?

3S, which is the only bid I believe, any bids above 3S are overbids. Double shouldn't work here because you may easily miss 5-3 sp fit. Some may pass with this hand, which I rate as conservative and if I pass, i'd never "balance" to 4S.

[the hog]

"3. do the hitch and hesitate pass so partner will know you have something. Clearly this way should be alertable."

This convention and its companion - "weasel over NTs" - are among the most widely played conventions today.

Anyway I pass and bid 4S the second time around.

[luke warm]

i'm sure you "pass then 4s" bidders are right, but why not bid 4h? i had a long day at work, a long 3 days actually, so i'm sure there's something horribly wrong with that bid, but it seems to me that it keeps spades alive while allowing the possibility of a diamond bid somewhere

[mikestar]

Ben,

I'm not sure about the assumption that the 3H opener has 8-9 tricks red vs. white. Even Bill Root, who I would regard as a conservative, teaches that you can open 3 of a suit on a fairly certain 7 tricks at unfavorable. (It terrifies me to think what Marty Bergen opens at the three level.)

[inquiry]

mikestar, on Jan 12 2005, 08:10 PM, said:

Ben,

I'm not sure about the assumption that the 3H opener has 8-9 tricks red vs. white. Even Bill Root, who I would regard as a conservative, teaches that you can open 3 of a suit on a fairly certain 7 tricks at unfavorable. (It terrifies me to think what Marty Bergen opens at the three level.)

Well this was imps, not matchpoints. Whatever you do at matchpoints, preempts at these colors at imps should be very sound.... not sure what the average bbo player does, maybe should take a look sometimes....

[inquiry]

inquiry, on Jan 12 2005, 08:34 PM, said:

mikestar, on Jan 12 2005, 08:10 PM, said:

Ben,

I'm not sure about the assumption that the 3H opener has 8-9 tricks red vs. white. Even Bill Root, who I would regard as a conservative, teaches that you can open 3 of a suit on a fairly certain 7 tricks at unfavorable.  (It terrifies me to think what Marty Bergen opens at the three level.)

Well this was imps, not matchpoints. Whatever you do at matchpoints, preempts at these colors at imps should be very sound.... not sure what the average bbo player does, maybe should take a look sometimes....

I took a quick look at what an opening bid of 3♥ at imps vul versus not vul looks like on BBO. As you can imagine it is a very wide range of hands people will bid on. I will some of the weakest and .some of the "strongest"

Svoid, H-JT86432 D-xx C-JT95 went for 1100 opposite no game making
S-Tx H-T9876432 D-8 C-K4 -- his partner couldn't take a the joke
Svoid h-AT987542 D-QTx C-94 -- down three as expected

Too strong were
S-AT H=AKQJ85 D-KQ9 C-KQ (24 points, really)
S-KQ H-AKQ7632 D-T4 C-AK

About right (in my opinion)
Sx H-AKQT842 D-3 C-QT96
S-void H-KQJ9652 D=At2 C=J82
S-QTx H-AKQT852 D-98 Cx
Sx HAKJ98732 Dxx CQx
Sx HQJT76432 DAJT Cx

It is safe looking at the hands, that there is a lot of disagreement about what a preempt vul versus not vul should be.

[joker_gib]

3♠ for me !

I want to take action with this hand and it is far more difficult to dbl me now than when I will re-open with 4♠ (what I would never do)

[Fluffy]

luke warm, on Jan 12 2005, 11:57 PM, said:

i'm sure you "pass then 4s" bidders are right, but why not bid 4h? i had a long day at work, a long 3 days actually, so i'm sure there's something horribly wrong with that bid, but it seems to me that it keeps spades alive while allowing the possibility of a diamond bid somewhere

Just styles, IMO with an unpassed hand partner bidding 4♥ is like scoring 2 off for the opponents, since if partner had the hand to make 4♠ you will play 6.

I have very solid overcall style, this hand is not even for a solid one, just for people who ovecalls kinda freely.

[cnszsun]

you can find the hand here:"original hand". Glad i'm not the only one to choose pass then 4S.